# I've suddenly become mortally petrified of undergoing general anaesthetic (personal identity Q) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650 "2014-02-06T10:43:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/241 "2014-04-14T23:07:09Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > My depression is another issue which I will probably address sooner or later. > > I’ve been thinking about the question of memory and how a cessation of the capacity to memorise may well explain the phenomenon of no time passing while under anesthesia. This has done a little to help calm me down. I’m telling you, that’s what the whole thing is. I’ve had both anesthesia the old-school way where they give it to you and have you count backwards, and I’ve had Versed administered 15 minutes before I even went into the OR. And I’ve been around a close friend & housemate under the influence of Versed(or maybe propofol) after he got his esophagus scoped and I picked him up from the Dr.'s office. He was totally awake, lucid and we had quite a nice lunch and interesting conversation, but he remembered none of it- later that evening we discussed it, and he remembered getting the sedative, and waking up from a nap at home. No recollection of lunch, conversation, etc… There wasn’t any discontinuity of consciousness in his case, but his experience was pretty much 100% like mine, with the exception of not actually having anesthesia. But from our perspectives, the experience was the same ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/242 "2014-04-15T12:00:32Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > I would be incredibly happy for a brief period of time. > > Of course, no-one will ever know if I did wake up as me except for me (the real me, not the me that will probably assume my place in a fortnight or so). Scary stuff. If nobody can tell the difference - and there’s no way to discern a difference, what _is_ the difference? Are you sure there is one? If so, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/243 "2014-04-15T12:28:42Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If nobody can tell the difference - and there’s no way to discern a difference, what _is_ the difference? Are you sure there is one? If so, what is it? The same difference between me and my clone: one is me, the other isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/244 "2014-04-15T13:06:15Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > The same difference between me and my clone: one is me, the other isn’t. Except when it’s the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/245 "2014-04-15T19:23:39Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > The same difference between me and my clone: one is me, the other isn’t. All this talk about clones is confusing the issue. A clone isn’t you because it doesn’t have your memories, personality or experiences. What you’re talking about is a transporter duplicate. In the unlikely case that such things are even possible, the transporter duplicates _would_ both be you. What they wouldn’t be is each other. Each one would be an individual person, but (assuming there was no way to identify an “original”) they would each have as much claim to being the person who was born when you were, grew up in your family, and who you are now, as you currently do. And there won’t be any you, past or present, who experienced or experiences dying or being replaced, just like there isn’t right now, and just as there won’t be when you undergo surgery. If you were to be duplicated, you’d simply be replaced, just like you are now every instant, only instead of being replaced with a single you, you’d be replaced by two yous. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/246 "2014-04-15T19:43:44Z")
You need to seek psychiatric help. At this point, I think you’re only going to make things worse for yourself – and I don’t think it will help you to talk about it, if no one can convince you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/247 "2014-04-15T19:45:28Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > The same difference between me and my clone: one is me, the other isn’t. Which? Someone takes them out of the room, and then brings them back in again. What test can be performed that will identify which one is the clone? (I mean, other than the big “2” tattooed on the forehead…) (Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.") ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/248 "2014-04-15T21:07:21Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > The same difference between me and my clone: one is me, the other isn’t. That’s not an explanation of a difference. That’s not an explanation of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/249 "2014-04-15T21:12:30Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > All this talk about clones is confusing the issue. A clone isn’t you because it doesn’t have your memories, personality or experiences. What you’re talking about is a transporter duplicate. In the unlikely case that such things are even possible, the transporter duplicates _would_ both be you. **What they wouldn’t be is each other.** I’m bookmarking this for quotation next time we do that whole transporter duplicate debate. That’s the exact problem - people can’t seem to separate the notion of two things being the same, but not being each other, and also not being just one freaky meta-thing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/250 "2014-04-15T22:06:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m bookmarking this for quotation next time we do that whole transporter duplicate debate. That’s the exact problem - people can’t seem to separate the notion of two things being the same, but not being each other, and also not being just one freaky meta-thing. That’s relevant if both the original and the duplicate are preserved. The debate occurs when the original is destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/251 "2014-04-15T22:17:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s relevant if both the original and the duplicate are preserved. The debate occurs when the original is destroyed. No, the debate is whether ‘original’ still means what we currently assume it does, when the ability to perfectly duplicate something arises. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/252 "2014-04-16T05:07:05Z")
Exactly; the modification of the transporter to a duplicator is a debate tactic that is supposed to enhance the philosophic force of whichever side is making its point at the moment. It’s supposed to clarify our thinking about the meanings of “originality” and “sameness” and so on. It doesn’t work, of course: both sides have an underlying concept of the meaning of those words which is not rebutted by such a modification. Those who believe the transporter is a murder machine are not mollified by a duplicating machine…and nor are those who believe the transporter is a transportation machine. It makes the debate longer, but doesn’t work to the real advantage of either side. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/253 "2014-04-16T05:21:40Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > I don’t believe being replaced on a conscious level is a “remote possibility”. There is sound reasoning behind it. But you wouldnt even know it if it you _were_ replaced, so no worries. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/254 "2014-04-16T20:49:45Z")
How can a fully-functioning _you_ come suddenly into existence and not _ **be** _ meaningfully you? That’s a weird and absurd idea - that this person is suddenly going to come into existence to replace you (that has gone… somewhere) The universe does not commonly generate _people_ instantaneously and spontaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/255 "2014-04-16T21:15:26Z")
It is a very common effect of modern anti-depressants for people to have a feeling, a rather strong sensation, that their new way of thinking “isn’t real.” “These thoughts aren’t really my thoughts.” (Speaking from personal experience.) This is, of course, almost exactly the opposite of the OPs point: it is possible for medications to give us a strong illusion of “not being ourselves any more,” but it is also something we are fully and completely aware of. It is also possible for something like that to happen, and the subject not be aware of it, but all his friends and relatives notice the difference. (“Gee, Bob, you never used to kick puppies, but now you’ve done it four times in the last week.” “What can you possibly mean, Charles? Nothing has changed at all.”) But if the subject and all who are familiar with him see no change…where is the change? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/256 "2014-04-19T12:42:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The universe does not commonly generate _people_ instantaneously and spontaneously. Yes it does. Birth for example. You didn’t exist before that. > [@Trinopus](#): > > It is a very common effect of modern anti-depressants for people to have a feeling, a rather strong sensation, that their new way of thinking “isn’t real.” > > “These thoughts aren’t really my thoughts.” (Speaking from personal experience.) > > This is, of course, almost exactly the opposite of the OPs point: it is possible for medications to give us a strong illusion of “not being ourselves any more,” but it is also something we are fully and completely aware of. > > It is also possible for something like that to happen, and the subject not be aware of it, but all his friends and relatives notice the difference. (“Gee, Bob, you never used to kick puppies, but now you’ve done it four times in the last week.” “What can you possibly mean, Charles? Nothing has changed at all.”) > > But if the subject and all who are familiar with him see no change…where is the change? I’m not on any sort of medication. The change would not be visible to anyone but that’s not the point. I don’t care about other people; I care about me (this current stream of consciousness). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/257 "2014-04-19T13:33:00Z")
Okay, has anyone else contacted a mod to try to get **LifeSucks’** join date and post total reset the day of his surgery? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/258 "2014-04-19T20:52:53Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > . . . I’m not on any sort of medication. I was explaining one way that changes in personality actually can happen. > [@](#): > > The change would not be visible to anyone but that’s not the point. I don’t care about other people; I care about me (this current stream of consciousness). In that case, you’re the only possible observer for the effect. Before the surgery, you might write down, in detail, lengthy notes about how you feel. Go into detail about emotional values. But also write down all your ideas about artistic values, what foods you like, what TV shows you like, etc. After surgery, go back and read these, and see if anything has changed. Every two or three years, read them again. I predict you will find changes in your beliefs, tastes, and values, as time goes by. I also predict the same for everyone else reading this. Hope the surgery goes well. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/259 "2014-04-19T20:56:27Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The universe does not commonly generate _people_ instantaneously and spontaneously. > [@LifeSucks](#): > > Yes it does. Birth for example. You didn’t exist before that. My birth (and more importantly, the development of the thing I call ‘me’) was neither spontaneous, nor instantaneous. People don’t suddenly come into existence fully-formed - therefore, the person that wakes up after surgery (assuming no brain damage occurs, etc) can only be you - at least in whatever sense you are already you. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/260 "2014-04-21T06:48:46Z")
1 week today. Frightening stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=14)