# I've suddenly become mortally petrified of undergoing general anaesthetic (personal identity Q) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650 "2014-02-06T10:43:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/41 "2014-02-06T20:55:57Z")
Yes, but fear not. Its life will suck just as hard. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/42 "2014-02-06T21:14:28Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yes, but fear not. Its life will suck just as hard. Ignorance is bliss. I can’t handle all my damning thoughts about the harsh reality of existence. Maybe “dying” would be good for me. My remarkably convincing imposter can bear the burden instead. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/43 "2014-02-06T21:18:21Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > There is sound reasoning behind it. How can the reasoning be sound if the facts are all wrong? You’re not going into a coma and your brain doesn’t just go away under anesthesia (or when you’re asleep). Don’t go giving yourself Capgras syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/44 "2014-02-06T21:19:22Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > There is **always** a tiny but possible chance of death when you undergo general anesthesia, even if everything goes right, and that’s even putting aside the remote possibility of your existential crisis about being mindwiped/replaced/whatever being true. :dubious: Tip your anesthesiologist. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/45 "2014-02-06T21:20:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t go giving yourself Capgras syndrome. That is some cool shit. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/46 "2014-02-06T21:22:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How can the reasoning be sound if the facts are all wrong? You’re not going into a coma and your brain doesn’t just go away under anesthesia (or when you’re asleep). Don’t go giving yourself Capgras syndrome. But your conscious state completely dies in a way that it doesn’t during sleep. People only dream during GA when its effects are wearing off. Here’s how I see it: [![](https://i.imgur.com/AseZIkr.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/AseZIkr.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/47 "2014-02-06T21:26:03Z")
I believe it’s no different than going to sleep. You stop being you. In the morning “you” get up, and “you” feel like you, and “you” ARE you, despite the loss of continuity. The assertion that some kind of identity stays during hibernation is easily shown to be spurious, if you accept that a computer could be conscious and intelligent. That is, with the computer, we could perform all sorts of experiments and the computer wouldn’t know or care whether it was respawned on the same hardware or different hardware, and it wouldn’t care about the missing time interval except for noting the clock on the wall and missing the events in between. Anyway, we did this to death in the transporter threads several times already. The bottom line for me is that there is no observable consequence, so I’m not going to worry about it. Just as I don’t worry when I go to sleep each night, that the “me” that wakes up is a new thread of consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/48 "2014-02-06T21:27:12Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > But your conscious state completely dies in a way that it doesn’t during sleep. People only dream during GA when its effects are wearing off. Just to save myself some time: you’re going to keep on saying this no matter how many people tell you it’s wrong, right? > [@kayaker](#): > > That is some cool shit. Who are you and what have you done with **kayaker**? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/49 "2014-02-06T21:32:36Z")
Anyway, be calmed by the fact that this: > [@](#): > > I believe lower order consciousness is nonlocal and is inherent to the software, no matter how many copies are made or where it is booted up. I believe higher order self-awareness is unique and is tied to one and only one continuous current of electro-chemical current. It’s born when booted up for the first time. It sleeps in hibernation mode, but remains intact. Changes and degeneration can occur over time, but as long as the original current continues unabated, the self remains intact. It dies when re-booted and a remarkably accurate impostor is born to take it’s place. is idle speculation. There is no data to support it, and it has no observable consequences. Admittedly, a few of the things I said above are equally idle speculation. But the fact remains that there are no testable consequences. So, I don’t worry about it. Why should you? Do you worry when you go to sleep at night? I have just as much evidence to believe that it’s a new thread of consciousness as the quote above about some electrochemical mumbo jumbo … probably more. Yet, you probably go to sleep unworried. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/50 "2014-02-06T21:33:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who are you and what have you done with **kayaker**? har har 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/51 "2014-02-06T21:37:30Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Also, continuing on the sleep comparison, what if we do die every time we sleep? There’s not necessarily any reason to believe we don’t. Oops, I missed this post of yours. You’re dead right! Pun intended. My point is, after anesthesia, you’d be no worse off than after a good night’s sleep, regardless of whether we “die” every time we sleep or not. My point is that we’re arguing about something that doesn’t actually exist or have meaning. IMHO, continuity of consciousness is an illusion caused by memory. It doesn’t exist, so don’t worry about preserving it. It is a really deep subject, though, since we’re addressing the definition of identity concerning a subjective entity. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/52 "2014-02-06T21:40:44Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Anyway, be calmed by the fact that this: > > is idle speculation. There is no data to support it, and it has no observable consequences. > > Admittedly, a few of the things I said above are equally idle speculation. But the fact remains that there are no testable consequences. > > So, I don’t worry about it. Why should you? > > Do you worry when you go to sleep at night? I have just as much evidence to believe that it’s a new thread of consciousness as the quote above about some electrochemical mumbo jumbo … probably more. Yet, you probably go to sleep unworried. The argument doesn’t need to be 100% verifiably and demonstrably true for it to invoke fear. As for the whole sleep thing, I did feel quite uneasy going to sleep earlier, but even so, I believe the state of unconsciousness differs from GA. During sleep, there is idle consciousness which, for survival reasons, is still able to act upon potentially dangerous external forces. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/53 "2014-02-06T21:44:26Z")
There’s not much sense in being afraid of something that’s not only unverified, but entirely academic. In any case what would you do if this was actually real? Not get an operation you presumably need? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/54 "2014-02-06T21:46:12Z")
Oh, if your only issue is a little fear over this issue, then all you need is a little valium or something. Frankly, you have much more serious things to be afraid of. If you need to worry, why don’t you worry about those? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/55 "2014-02-06T21:58:43Z")
Maybe I should turn to God and console myself in the belief that I have an immaterial soul. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/56 "2014-02-06T22:23:08Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > But your conscious state completely dies in a way that it doesn’t during sleep. People only dream during GA when its effects are wearing off. > > Here’s how I see it: > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](http://i.imgur.com/AseZIkr.jpg) And you only dream during certain stages of sleep, not the whole night. But, back up a second here, because I re-read your OP, and now I’m confused as to why this: > [@](#): > > Observe two functional brains before you. They are identical in every physical way. To you they are the same and it doesn’t matter which one you choose to be your fishing buddy or your wife…or both. But, to each of them they are different. How? > > They are identical, but they are not the same. This one \ is over here; that one \ is over there. They occupy separate coordinates in space. They are not exactly the same. I believe lower order consciousness is nonlocal and is inherent to the software, no matter how many copies are made or where it is booted up. triggered the fear of anesthesia. It’s predicated on there being TWO brains in two places, not one brain that stays in your head. I guess I could see your fear if they were doing a brain transplant - truly, no one knows what the heck would happen in that case - but they’re not. > [@](#): > > I believe higher order self-awareness is unique and is tied to one and only one continuous current of electro-chemical current. It’s born when booted up for the first time. It sleeps in hibernation mode, but remains intact. Changes and degeneration can occur over time, but as long as the original current continues unabated, the self remains intact. It dies when re-booted and a remarkably accurate impostor is born to take it’s place. Ok, so perhaps a decent argument against two brains and transporters and turning off your brain, but anesthesia does not turn off your brain. It doesn’t. Brain waves continue. The “electro-chemical current” is continuous. In other words, even the quote that put you in this state of fear - which was about an entirely different topic - doesn’t describe the thing you fear. By Tibby’s own argument, you will come out of anesthesia you, because your self-awareness “sleeps in hibernation mode, but remains intact.” I suggest, in all seriousness, that you speak with your anesthesiologist before the surgery, to get a more accurate picture of what happens to your brain during general anesthetic. They do NOT turn it off. The brain waves continue. Your brain keeps working. It is never discontinuous. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/57 "2014-02-06T22:39:02Z")
> [@BleizDu](#): > > Since I was wondering who was Tibby too, here’s the post quoted: > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16343206&postcount=30](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16343206&postcount=30) Not so sure about that. The poster of that little essay may or may not have been Tibby. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/58 "2014-02-06T22:46:45Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Maybe I should turn to God and console myself in the belief that I have an immaterial soul. Religion is the kind of thing that helps the kind of people that are helped by that kind of thing. You may be one of them. If so, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/59 "2014-02-06T22:52:16Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > anesthesia does not turn off your brain. It doesn’t. Brain waves continue. The “electro-chemical current” is continuous. This is the short answer. The longer explanation: [Black Box](http://www.radiolab.org/story/anesthesia/), if you’re seriously asking whether or not you remain in existence when you sleep. It’s an emerging study, pretty interesting stuff. You don’t even have to think about your soul, your physical body and brain remain intact throughout the experience. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/60 "2014-02-06T22:53:33Z")
A friend of mine mentioned to me, some 30 years ago, that psychologists had investigated “transporter anxiety”, that is, they had interviewed people about a hypothetical Star Trek style transporter to get their thoughts. (One would have thought that a mind meld would get their thoughts much more efficiently.) I have no idea what kind of answers people were giving. But the kind of questions being asked were along the lines of: [ul][li] Would you consent to be transported like that?[/li][li] What if “you” materialized at the destination _before_ disappearing from the source location? (That is, for a brief moment there are two of “you”?)[/li][li] Should the transporter create and maintain a back-up file of each person transported? If the transporter mal-functions (as it did in several episodes), should “you” be restored from the latest back-up file? Is it still “you”?[/li][/ul] Dopers, what do “you” think? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=4)