# IVF (and hot teachers) makes baby Jesus cry.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162 "2012-04-27T18:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/21 "2012-04-27T20:43:52Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > They may also be donated to those who want a child and for some reason cannot have one naturally but a woman is able to carry a child to birth. You mean a married woman. Heaven forbid they are donated to a single woman, a lesbian, or a surrogate mother for a gay couple. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/22 "2012-04-27T21:21:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? I’m curious (about the official Catholic Church stance on IVF, and why), but I won’t vouch for anyone else. I expect most people are just here to rant against the church. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/23 "2012-04-27T21:24:02Z")
I’m curous on the churches stance as well, but have a feeling it’s not like it’s some sort of standard across all churches. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/24 "2012-04-27T21:25:35Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > I have some Catholic friends who’ve done IVF and had leftover embryos that they were not able to use for various reasons. The way this is typically handled is the mother has them put in her uterus at a time in her cycle where they will not implant, allowing the embryos to die a ‘natural’ death. If an embryo’s a person, isn’t that like putting an already-born baby in a snowbank to die a natural death? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/25 "2012-04-27T21:29:04Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > If an embryo’s a person, isn’t that like putting an already-born baby in a snowbank to die a natural death? 😕 No idea. I’m just telling you what they did, as Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/26 "2012-04-27T21:47:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? Hey, any excuse to rant against the Catholic church. That said, I think this particular rant is a worthy one. As far as legal recourse? I doubt she has any. (sadly) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/27 "2012-04-27T22:00:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? AFAIK, it’s pretty much just for the ranting, so far. There might be some arguing about the merits of the lawsuit downthread a bit. Why don’t you go circle the block and try back a bit later? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/28 "2012-04-27T22:06:50Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But I disagree with the hot teacher part. She is Ok after being heavily made up for TV. No more than that. [She appears to have had some work done.](http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/catholic-school-teacher-fired-vitro-fertilization-lawsuit-article-1.1067241?localLinksEnabled=false) > [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? The common sense perspective is that Church doctrine is irrelevant. When the Church holds itself out as a secular employer, it can go pound sand if it wants to retain its churchy rights. We’ll see if the courts actually pay attention to the lines they read between in Perich. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/29 "2012-04-27T22:07:38Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > I have some Catholic friends who’ve done IVF and had leftover embryos that they were not able to use for various reasons. The way this is typically handled is the mother has them put in her uterus at a time in her cycle where they will not implant, allowing the embryos to die a ‘natural’ death. They must think god is phenomenally dense. > [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? Go ahead and give it a shot, if you’d like. But be prepared for a response of, “That’s fucking stupid logic.” Because in my experience, when the RCC explains why they’re against something, it’s the only phrase that comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/30 "2012-04-27T22:19:24Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Hey, any excuse to rant against the Catholic church. > > That said, I think this particular rant is a worthy one. > > As far as legal recourse? I doubt she has any. (sadly) she could create as much distance between herself and the church as possible. Like everyone who doesn’t buy the inconvenient aspects of official doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/31 "2012-04-27T22:22:52Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > They may also be donated to those who want a child and for some reason cannot have one naturally but a woman is able to carry a child to birth. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > You mean a married woman. Heaven forbid they are donated to a single woman, a lesbian, or a surrogate mother for a gay couple. That may be the policy of the RCC but I highly doubt there are any RCC affiliated IVF clinics. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/32 "2012-04-27T22:48:16Z")
When my husband and I were involved in fertility treatments, one clinic insisted on seeing proof of marriage as we had different last names. It was not a pro-forma thing: it came up when we made the appointment and again during the consult. It was one of the reasons we went with a different clinic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/33 "2012-04-27T23:00:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The common sense perspective is that Church doctrine is irrelevant. When the Church holds itself out as a secular employer, it can go pound sand if it wants to retain its churchy rights. There might be times when it is a “secular employer”, but I don’t think running a private, religious schools is one of them. Even if she only teaches English, she’s still supposed to be a [Catholic] role model to the students. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/34 "2012-04-27T23:02:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? There’s no mystery about the Church’s position. It’s right there in the OP’s article. They say: > [@](#): > > The diocese responded, saying it “views the core issue raised in this lawsuit as a challenge to the diocese’s right, as a religious employer, to make religious based decisions consistent with its religious standards on an impartial basis.” > > In its statement, diocese officials said that “the church promotes treatment of infertility through means that respect the right to life, the unity of marriage, and procreation brought about as the fruit of the conjugal act. There are other infertility treatments, such as in vitro fertilization, which are not morally licit according to Catholic teaching.” > > The statement adds that teachers working in the diocese are required to “have a knowledge and respect for the Catholic faith, and abide by the tenets of the Catholic Church.” It’s consistent with recent statements from Church officials complaining about allowing their employees access to contraception via insurance - even employees in non-religious positions, even if the church is not paying for it personally. The article goes on to state that Emily Herx and her lawyer hope to argue that the Supreme Court decision in the Cheryl Perich case doesn’t apply to employees who are not in a “ministerial” position, such as, for example, English Teachers. I think Herx will, or, at any rate, should prevail on that. I think the Supreme Court erred in not making it clear that it’s possible that not all employees are “ministers”. I also think that the 98% of Catholic women who’ve decide to ignore the Catholic Church’s position on birth control should start voting with their feet. I’ve said previously that women would be stupid to go to a Catholic hospital for reproductive health care if it means their medical needs are going to subject to control by a priest (as for example, in [the case at St. Joseph’s hospital in Phoenix](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126985072), where the local church officials threw a fit after after a woman had a medically necessary late-term abortion to save her own life.) It now appears that women would be stupid to work or associate themselves with the Catholic Church in any capacity given that the Church feels it can exert direct control over our life, medical, and monetary choices. I think the RCC’s position in all these cases is bullshit and women should, in fact, do everything they can to distance themselves from the Catholic Church. Women should never let anyone else dictate their medical choices, for any reason. Period. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/35 "2012-04-27T23:09:58Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > I think the RCC’s position in all these cases is bullshit and women should, in fact, do everything they can to distance themselves from the Catholic Church. Women should never let anyone else dictate their medical choices, for any reason. Period. Especially during their period! ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/36 "2012-04-27T23:11:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Before I waste my time: is the purpose of this thread simply to have another place to rant against the Church, or is there any interest in the factual information concerning Church doctrine or the legal issues involved in the lawsuit? I’m interested, and don’t really feel the need to rant against the Catholic church, but clearly I’m in the minority. Perhaps a thread in MPSIMS? I’d also be more likely to check the thread there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/37 "2012-04-27T23:11:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There might be times when it is a “secular employer”, but I don’t think running a private, religious schools is one of them. Even if she only teaches English, she’s still supposed to be a [Catholic] role model to the students. A non-Catholic English teacher is supposed to be a Catholic role model? I guess the school only hires Catholic teachers, then? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/38 "2012-04-27T23:13:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > A non-Catholic English teacher is supposed to be a Catholic role model? Yes. > [@](#): > > I guess the school only hires Catholic teachers, then? No. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/39 "2012-04-27T23:20:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Where is Henry VIII when we need him, anyway? In the Tower of London, large as life . . . ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/40 "2012-04-27T23:21:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Especially during their period! Oh, _you_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162.md?page=3)