# IVF (and hot teachers) makes baby Jesus cry.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162 "2012-04-27T18:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/61 "2012-04-28T11:38:48Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Catholic here just for the record… > > Does the fact that she actually taught religion make a difference? I think it does. If a teacher is employed to strictly teach math, it does not necessarily make her responsible for upholding the opinions of the employer unless it’s an understood and agreed to condition of employment. > A religion teacher on the other hand carries implied authority and a child cannot be expected to differentiate the teacher’s lessons from their private actions, leading to a true conflict. > I would support a teacher at my child’s Catholic school who if not Catholic did not live by Catholic ideology, with the reservation that the teacher not promote or discuss decisions Catholics do not approve of. I don’t know what her employment agreement said. But i know that at the Catholic diocese school at which my wife worked as an office manager, all teachers were specifically tasked, in writing, in their contracts, that in addition to whatever academic subjects they are assigned to teach, to teach catechism truths, to weave into their lessons the moral message of the Church, to serve as a witness to Christ’s message, and to assist as needed at Mass. I would say if this woman had a contract that said she was solely responsible for teaching secular subjects, it will be harder for the Church to claim the ministerial exception laid out in _Hosanna Tabor_. And I would say that if she had a contract similar tothe one used at my wife’s former school, then the Church is in reasonably strong position, from a legal standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/62 "2012-04-28T12:53:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know what her employment agreement said. That’s what I was wondering about. The article in the OP says that the school requires all teachers to “abide by the tenets of the Catholic church,” which to me implies that this isn’t just something they pulled out of their ass, but rather a standing condition of employment. And that implies to me that this woman knew about this requirement and agreed to be bound by it when she hired in, in which case I don’t really see that she has a leg to stand on. I don’t agree with that employment contracts that restrict aspects of your personal life that don’t impact your job performance, but we accept them from secular employers–whether or not you can have a second job, what that second job can be and what hours you can work it, where you can shop, what products you can use. If we accept clauses that restrict things that don’t affect job performance and are none of the employer’s business in the secular realm, I don’t honestly see how we can raise a stink when a church enforces those same sort of clauses. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/63 "2012-04-28T22:05:37Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > No they aren’t, they’re frozen for use later. > > I have some Catholic friends who’ve done IVF and had leftover embryos that they were not able to use for various reasons. The way this is typically handled is the mother has them put in her uterus at a time in her cycle where they will not implant, allowing the embryos to die a ‘natural’ death. Does health insurance pay for that? ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/64 "2012-04-28T23:38:43Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > Does health insurance pay for that? No idea. It doesn’t for us (I’m in Canada), and I’m not sure how it works in the U.S. It probably varies depending on what insurance you have. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/65 "2012-04-29T00:19:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Like: When it comes to the expression and inculcation of religious doctrine, there can be no doubt that the messenger matters. Religious teachings cover the gamut from moral conduct to metaphysical truth, and both the content and credibility of a religion’s message depend vitally on the character and conduct of its teachers. A religion cannot depend on someone to be an effective advocate for its religious vision if that person’s conduct fails to live up to the religious precepts that he or she espouses. For this reason, a religious body’s right to self-governance must include the ability to select, and to be selective about, those who will serve as the very “embodiment of its message” and “its voice to the faithful.” > > Like that? Sure, if anyone can come up with a plausible argument that an English teacher (let’s bear in mind that she taught nothing else, including religious studies) is “the embodiment of the Church’s message.” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/66 "2012-04-29T11:53:42Z")
FWIW, at my Catholic high school, I think all of the layperson teachers were also Extraordinary Ministers of the Holy Eucharist - it made services in the gym go a lot faster. It wouldn’t surprise me if this is fairly common, depending on what the make-up of the teachers at the school is (mine only had 1 priest - of the rest about 1/3 were sisters, the rest laypeople - total students there was probably around 1200). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/67 "2012-04-29T14:03:35Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > That’s what I was wondering about. The article in the OP says that the school requires all teachers to “abide by the tenets of the Catholic church,” which to me implies that this isn’t just something they pulled out of their ass, but rather a standing condition of employment. And that implies to me that this woman knew about this requirement and agreed to be bound by it when she hired in, in which case I don’t really see that she has a leg to stand on. > > I don’t agree with that employment contracts that restrict aspects of your personal life that don’t impact your job performance, but we accept them from secular employers–whether or not you can have a second job, what that second job can be and what hours you can work it, where you can shop, what products you can use. If we accept clauses that restrict things that don’t affect job performance and are none of the employer’s business in the secular realm, I don’t honestly see how we can raise a stink when a church enforces those same sort of clauses. Claiming that they will hire non-Catholics but making them follow(through contract) all the tenets of the Catholic church, both on _and_ off duty seems a little iffy legal wise to me. Would a Jewish woman who signed such a contract have to use a Catholic priest to get married? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/68 "2012-04-29T17:58:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, but perhaps the term “role model” is not a good choice, especially since it’s not very well defined. Rather, an adult hired but the Catholic Church to supervise minor children in any way should not engage in activity considered by the Church to be a murder. > > Abortion is considered murder by the RCC, and it considers the procedure this woman underwent to be a form of abortion. Do they fire every employee who has an abortion? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/69 "2012-04-29T23:05:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do they fire every employee who has an abortion? Serious question. I do not know about this school, but the local parochial school in my neighborhood will fire anyone that has an abortion or says anything other the offical RRC policy that abortion is a grievous sin while talking with the students. They also fire people for living together without being married, having an illegitimate child, or remarrying after a divorced. But you know what, everybody hired there from principal to janitor knows that from the moment they apply for a job and either lives with it or finds other work. If this was a teacher in a public school, I would say she should sue them until bleed. But it’s a private religious school, their rules, and she wasn’t compelled to teach there is she didn’t like their rules. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/70 "2012-04-29T23:16:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure, if anyone can come up with a plausible argument that an English teacher (let’s bear in mind that she taught nothing else, including religious studies) is “the embodiment of the Church’s message.” She had no other duties? Her mandate did not include the direction to teach English studies with an awareness of and integration to the catechism of the church? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/71 "2012-04-29T23:23:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > She had no other duties? Her mandate did not include the direction to teach English studies with an awareness of and integration to the catechism of the church? Really? Seriously, how the hell does that even work? Do you only teach from literature written by Catholics? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/72 "2012-04-30T00:26:58Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Seriously, how the hell does that even work? Do you only teach from literature written by Catholics? You teach nothing that the RCC has ever condemned as immoral or which contains opinions that contradict RCC values unless the purpose of their inclusion is to refute those opinions. Seriously, it’s not that difficult and religious schools of all faiths have these kind of clauses in employment contracts all the time. If you don’t want to abide by them, don’t take a job at a religious school. Before getting my ALA accredited MLS I worked as a school librarian in a religious school, RCC as a matter of fact, it was laid iout n the rules that I wasn’t suppose to discuss a lot of topics with the students such as birth control, abortion, and in my case a special line had been added to the contract to include fortune-telling. I could help them find all the research materials they wanted on the subject, but was not by word or deed to express any personal opionions on a subject when in contradicted official RCC policy. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/73 "2012-04-30T00:37:42Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You teach nothing that the RCC has ever condemned as immoral or which contains opinions that contradict RCC values unless the purpose of their inclusion is to refute those opinions. And I thought reading the “classics” was boring for _me_! At least after reading the damn things, I didn’t have to sit through a lecture about all the shit they got wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/74 "2012-04-30T01:47:21Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Seriously, how the hell does that even work? Do you only teach from literature written by Catholics? I find it difficult to believe that you are seriously baffled. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/75 "2012-04-30T03:06:12Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > … and in my case a special line had been added to the contract to include fortune-telling… Boy, I bet you didn’t see _that_ coming, huh? That peaks my curiosity. Do you know why they did that? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/76 "2012-04-30T03:48:50Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I think the “qualifies as a minister” line is a non-starter, myself. In fact, I think various parties lately have been a little too eager to bring up the “qualifies as a minister” issue, almost like they’re trying to demonstrate how “well-informed” they are because they happen to be aware of the recent SCOTUS ruling that determined, somewhat counter-intuitively, that someone could become a minister in a religion without their own knowledge. > [@Voyager](#): > > Then you must feel that it is okay for a Catholic school to refuse to hire anyone but Catholics. 😕 How does what I posted lead to that conclusion? > [@Voyager](#): > > Clearly this is permissible for those teaching religion or leading religious services - but is it for anyone else? My take is that, no, it’s not all right. Even for a Roman Catholic teacher (to say nothing of a non-Catholic employee) ISTM that it’s an issue of the teacher having committed a “sin”, and the resolution of that transgression should be between the sinner and the sinner’s confessor; I’m not that comfortable with the diocese inserting itself into whatever reconciliation process the teacher avails herself of. > [@Voyager](#): > > If not, is it okay to fire a non-Catholic teacher for using birth control? Is it okay for a Protestant church school to refuse to hire unsaved Jews? Papists? Muslims? No, no, no, and let’s see, here…umm, no. Heck back when I was a Catholic, the music director at my church was a freakin’ **atheist**. \* ♫ There’s NO business like SHOW business… ♫\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/77 "2012-04-30T03:57:12Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Seriously, how the hell does that even work? Do you only teach from literature written by Catholics? Heh. I did Catholic school for twelve years, with the exception of half a year in public schools during my third grade. The readers in Catholic schools, instead of Dick, Jane, and Sally, had John, Jean, and Judy. Puff and Spot kept their names, as did Mother and Father. Also, there would be an occasional appearance by a priest or a nun; and one time, Spot kept interfering with John making himself a bologna sandwich as an afternoon snack, until John glanced at the calendar and noticed that it was a Friday. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/78 "2012-04-30T04:01:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Boy, I bet you didn’t see _that_ coming, huh? > > That peaks my curiosity. Do you know why they did that? That should be “piques my curiosity” my good man. From the French "pique”, meaning “prick”. Note that there is no subliminal meaning there. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/79 "2012-04-30T15:15:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Boy, I bet you didn’t see _that_ coming, huh? > > That peaks my curiosity. Do you know why they did that? Because they knew that was my other job. As long as I didn’t discuss is with the students other than to say that it was against the official teaching of the church, they really didn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/80 "2012-04-30T15:46:33Z")
[An actual discussion of the subject.](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/04/should-catholic-schools-be-able-to-fire-teachers-over-fertility-treatments/256427/)The article is an interview with a Catholic priest whose expertise is in theological doctrine. The gist: although the Church forbids fertility treatments, as it does some other things most Catholics practice, such as birth control, the reason for this particular event lies in the takeover of some parts of the Church by the ultra-right; it is politically motivated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162.md?page=5)