# IVF (and hot teachers) makes baby Jesus cry.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162 "2012-04-27T18:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/81 "2012-04-30T16:05:39Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > [An actual discussion of the subject.](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/04/should-catholic-schools-be-able-to-fire-teachers-over-fertility-treatments/256427/)The article is an interview with a Catholic priest whose expertise is in theological doctrine. > > The gist: although the Church forbids fertility treatments, as it does some other things most Catholics practice, such as birth control, the reason for this particular event lies in the takeover of some parts of the Church by the ultra-right; it is politically motivated. I agree with his commentary to the extent that he says the issue was poorly handled, pastorally. But I don’t believe that from a legal standpoint the Church is on shaky grounds. In the linked article, the author takes the time to point out that Ms. Herx won at the EEOC – that is, the EEOC found in her favor. So, too, did Ms. Cheryl Perich, the original plaintiff in the Hosanna Tabor case mentioned above. The EEOC found in her favor – and, ultimately, the Supreme Court unanimously rejected her claim and found that a religious school may fire a teacher if that teacher’s duties included ministerial work. And on my own information and belief, pretty much every Catholic educational primary and secondary institution tasks all its teachers to teach their subjects in ways which inculcate awareness of and integration to the catechism of the church, to assist at Mass as servers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, and to teach by the example of their own lives Christ’s message… I believe Ms. Herx’s legal claim to be tenuous. I grant, however. that if it should develop that Mss. Herx was tasked only with teaching literature, period… then her position is much stronger. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/82 "2012-04-30T16:13:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I don’t believe that from a legal standpoint the Church is on shaky grounds. In the linked article, the author takes the time to point out that Ms. Herx won at the EEOC – that is, the EEOC found in her favor. Would it be needlessly picky of me to suggest that _diocese_ would be a more apt word choice than _Church_? ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/83 "2012-04-30T16:17:52Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > LOL! > > Did you even need to ask the question, **Bricker**? Exactly. If this was a teacher who hosted a pig roast at Yeshiva school, we would all be hearing about how insensitive and insulting the teacher was and how people should not get a jobs at certain institutions if they don’t want to abide by the rules. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/84 "2012-04-30T16:30:07Z")
> [@LurkerinNJ](#): > > If this was a teacher who hosted a pig roast at Yeshiva school… She self-administered IVF on school property? ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/85 "2012-04-30T16:41:30Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > She self-administered IVF on school property? In the published story, it appeared that she went to a doctor for the procedure and did not self-administer on school grounds. Since the Catholic Church does not have audio and video to her doctors office, if she had not mouthed off to the Church and school about her deeply personal medical procedure, no one would have known that her pregnancy did not come about the old fashioned way and she would not be in this position. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/86 "2012-04-30T16:58:48Z")
Well I think a more apt analogy would be someone describing the delicious crackly bacon sandwich they had for breakfast to a person in the Yeshiva school in lurid detail, then getting fired. Poor taste or ignorance on the part of the person regaling the tale, disproportionate response from the administration, firing probably legally permissible. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/87 "2012-04-30T17:09:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I do care when a woman who in no way is teaching any kind of religion gets fired for personal decisions. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > A non-Catholic English teacher is supposed to be a Catholic role model? I guess the school only hires Catholic teachers, then? I spent a few years working at a Catholic school and I can tell you that they asked me to prove my “Catholic-ness.” While I had been baptized as a Catholic, my family isn’t terribly religious, so I never did all the other Catholic stuff. I was very open about this, but the principal cut me off and said, “Baptism alone is fine enough for the Diocese. Just don’t tell anyone the rest of that, ok?” I also had to sign a morality contract that included things like not living with a boyfriend or getting knocked up out of wedlock-- such things would be fireable offenses. I just laughed and told all my friends that I (_me_! of all people!) had to sign a freaking _morality contract_, at which point they’d all keel over in hysterical laughter. I honestly can’t remember what was all on that contract, so it may or may not have included IVF (the damned form was a whole page, single spaced, 12 pt font). One of my responsibilities was taking the kids to mass (though I’d always duck out the back when no one was looking) and leading them in different prayers and stuff during class-- daily prayer, then whatever holiday tradition was happening. I was respectful of their beliefs and did my best to get appropriately answers to their religious questions or go get answers from the priest. The kids very quickly realized I wasn’t Catholic-- or at least, a not very good Catholic-- but I don’t think they really cared. If I had been fired for my whorish ways :p, it probably would have burned a little bit, but I signed on to work there understanding fully what they requested of me. I regularly skirted the lines and got away with it just fine, but I also never did anything particularly egregious (egregious in their eyes, I mean) that they found out about. > [@thirdwarning](#): > > **John Mace** , I’d think that the effect on the students is exactly what the priest was considering if he told her she should have kept quiet about IVF. Her pregnancy was not the issue, but the way it came about was. If she had just not said anything, people would have assumed it happened the natural way and the children would not have been exposed to a teacher who promotes a sinful act. > It seems to be it’s not about preventing a scandal, but about what the children are taught. I don’t see how that weakens the case. This is completely the attitude I took away from the place I worked. If you were doing something wrong (ie: me not being a Catholic, except in baptism only), then just keep your mouth shut and no one will know. Hey, isn’t complete silence and ignoring things the Catholic way? ;)😃 > [@zoid](#): > > Catholic here just for the record… > > Does the fact that she actually taught religion make a difference? FWIW, at the school I worked at, “religion” class really was not some Catholic indoctrination class. I think for one year of high school (freshman), it was taught by the priest and was all about Catholicism, but every other year it really was just a world religions class. I saw kids doing assignments on Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and even edited a kid’s report on Unitarians. Oh, and one boy asked me to help him research his paper on the flying spaghetti monster-- a paper he got an A on. Of the religion teachers on campus, one was a Buddhist, one was a Hindu, and one was a priest. Granted, that may have just been that school. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/88 "2012-04-30T17:10:17Z")
I don’t think this lady should have lost her job – hell, she’s reproducing! This is a good thing! Catholics are all about babies last I heard. That said — why the hell did she tell her boss?! There was simply no need! ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/89 "2012-04-30T17:47:54Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > I don’t think this lady should have lost her job – hell, she’s reproducing! This is a good thing! Catholics are all about babies last I heard. > > That said — why the hell did she tell her boss?! There was simply no need! This being the pit and all, I’m too lazy to go and look. But wasn’t this in the context of her needing to justify taking time off work? She provided an explanation to her boss of the reason she needed to be absent. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/90 "2012-04-30T18:40:19Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Would it be needlessly picky of me to suggest that _diocese_ would be a more apt word choice than _Church_? Not at all – you’re absolutely correct that the party is the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend. But while the diocese is the employer, the one one making the decision about how to apply the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church in this case, it’s also fair to say that the teaching regarding IVF does not originate with Bishop Rhoads. So I’d suggest there’s at least some justification in mentioning the Church in her entirety, as well as the particular church that is the diocese involved here. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/91 "2012-04-30T19:50:39Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > FWIW, at the school I worked at, “religion” class really was not some Catholic indoctrination class. I think for one year of high school (freshman), it was taught by the priest and was all about Catholicism, but every other year it really was just a world religions class. I saw kids doing assignments on Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and even edited a kid’s report on Unitarians. Oh, and one boy asked me to help him research his paper on the flying spaghetti monster-- a paper he got an A on. Of the religion teachers on campus, one was a Buddhist, one was a Hindu, and one was a priest. Granted, that may have just been that school. I took 6 years of theology from 7th to 12th grade. I roughly remember it as: 7th grade: General overview of Christianity (creation story, 10 commandments, etc.) 8th grade: History of Christianity 9th grade: Old Testament 10th grade: New Testament 11th grade: Catholic Dogma (taught by a Jewish guy who converted) 12th grade (split into 2) : Religion and the family / Philosophy and Religion All of the classes were interesting, even as an aethiest, with the exception of the Religion and the family - this was the closest to an “indoctrination” class, as it really could ahve been titled “how to be a good Catholic.” Oddy enough, the Catholic Dogma class was one of the most interesting classses - and not indoctrinating at all - it was really philosophical in nature, probably owing a lot to the teacher rather than the material. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/92 "2012-04-30T20:04:45Z")
When the mind tries to figure out the spirit, theology results, a form of semantic pathology that is interesting mostly for its complexity. And no, God cannot create a burrito that he cannot eat. But the burrito can. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/93 "2012-04-30T21:31:40Z")
I thought it was the candyman who could do that. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/94 "2012-04-30T22:29:51Z")
It would be nice if the Catholic church went after child raping priests with the same fervor that they go after women who make a personal choice about their bodies that the church doesn’t agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/95 "2012-04-30T22:48:10Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > It would be nice if the Catholic church went after child raping priests with the same fervor that they go after women who make a personal choice about their bodies that the church doesn’t agree with. So, what they did with this woman was essentially ask her to keep what she was doing private, and then when she made it public, removed her from her position. Isn’t that basically the allegation about how the church treated the abusing priests? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/96 "2012-04-30T22:54:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, what they did with this woman was essentially ask her to keep what she was doing private, and then when she made it public, removed her from her position. Did she make it “public”? > [@](#): > > Isn’t that basically the allegation about how the church treated the abusing priests? This, I’m not following at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/97 "2012-05-01T00:17:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, what they did with this woman was essentially ask her to keep what she was doing private, and then when she made it public, removed her from her position. > > Isn’t that basically the allegation about how the church treated the abusing priests? No, the church moved the priest to another parish far enough away that they hadn’t heard about the crimes and allowed the priest to rape more children until people found out then moved him to another… I don’t believe the church offered to move the teacher to another position in another city or am I mistaken on this part? There also a huge difference between supporting child rape and punishing a woman for doing something she wanted which is currently legal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/98 "2012-05-01T00:47:21Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > There also a huge difference between supporting child rape and punishing a woman for doing something she wanted which is currently legal. There are few things worse than child rape, for sure. You and I don’t consider IVF to result in murder, but the RCC does. Legal or not, the RCC is “punishing” her for what they see is murder. So, yeah, from their perspective it’s worse. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/99 "2012-05-01T08:07:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Legal or not, the RCC is “punishing” her for what they see is murder. She didn’t commit the murder though, merely procured it. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162/100 "2012-05-01T10:40:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There are few things worse than child rape, for sure. You and I don’t consider IVF to result in murder, but the RCC does. Legal or not, the RCC is “punishing” her for what they see is murder. So, yeah, from their perspective it’s worse. Indeed, FWIW The Catholic Church considers masturbation to be a worse sin than rape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivf-and-hot-teachers-makes-baby-jesus-cry/620162.md?page=6)