# Ivory Tower Denizen, Is There a Reason for a Warning Rather than an Explanation? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 23, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033 "2017-09-23T12:01:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/201 "2017-09-27T23:59:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Bullshit. This board lives for pure-grade brilliant hilarious snark. The lame shit snark dilutes the fuckin brand. > > These posts are both sentences, yes. Beyond that, they share very little in common. > > SECOND VERSE SAME AS THE FIRST > > So here’s where I’m supposed to point out, **again** , that it was a different moderator in a different forum, and that different moderators have different personalities, and two posts from different posters being moderated differently by different moderators in different forums don’t comprise a pattern, right? > > And this is where you or Shodan or somebody complains about my demanding an impossible standard of evidence (y’know, where someone compares like things instead of different things), and refuses to supply anything even slightly more convincing, right? > > No. I give up. You win. The pattern is established. > > In that spirit, however, do you mind telling me the law school you went to? I plan to sue them for discrimination against people not named Rick. After all, they not only accepted you to law school, they graduated you. I’m also an American man, but not only didn’t they give me a degree, they didn’t even accept me. Discrimination! > > And don’t you even THINK of pointing out how our cases aren’t the same. What sort of impossible standard would that be? My link is worse than Shodans warning. Poster intentionally misread post to launch personal attack. Please work on your critical reading skills before the years first homework assignments are due. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/202 "2017-09-28T00:15:03Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > My link is worse than Shodans warning. Poster intentionally misread post to launch personal attack. The only misreading seems to be yours. He used the second person plural, and some folks interpreted it as the second person singular, because the words are the same. I’m a big proponent of “y’all” for exactly this reason, but I don’t think that should be required usage. The post makes significantly less sense with the second-person singular interpretation (“your activities” is almost certainly referencing the activities of the group, not of billfish). But please, do condescend to me about misreading :). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/203 "2017-09-28T00:18:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The only misreading seems to be yours. He used the second person plural, and some folks interpreted it as the second person singular, because the words are the same. I’m a big proponent of “y’all” for exactly this reason, but I don’t think that should be required usage. Both are snarky…one is confusing trolly and the other confusing personal attacky. Neither deserve a formal warning. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/204 "2017-09-28T00:19:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Bullshit. This board lives for pure-grade brilliant hilarious snark. If this board lives for pure-grade brilliant hilarious snark… it starved to death years ago. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/205 "2017-09-28T00:20:28Z")
And post 171 in this thread is accusing a poster of trolling outside of the Pit. Again, note worthy but probably not warnable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/206 "2017-09-28T00:21:41Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Both are snarky…one is confusing trolly and the other confusing personal attacky. Neither deserve a formal warning. Yes, they’re both snarky. So I should have said that earlier. They’re still apples and oranges 1. One person writes that he repeatedly attended events that “often felt more like a KKK rally” and got snarked at for doing so in a post that raised an actual criticism of his activities. 2. Another person wrote a thoughtful post about the complexities of gender and got snarked at for doing so in a post whose entire thesis was that it was a deliberately shitty way to phrase what the poster thought was his opponents’ view. Meditate on the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/207 "2017-09-28T00:23:01Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And post 171 in this thread is accusing a poster of trolling outside of the Pit. Again, note worthy but probably not warnable. I, uh, I may have scrolled past that–and when I went back to check what it was, I may have decided just to take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/208 "2017-09-28T00:34:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, they’re both snarky. So I should have said that earlier. They’re still apples and oranges > > 1. One person writes that he repeatedly attended events that “often felt more like a KKK rally” and got snarked at for doing so in a post that raised an actual criticism of his activities. > > 2. Another person wrote a thoughtful post about the complexities of gender and got snarked at for doing so in a post whose entire thesis was that it was a deliberately shitty way to phrase what the poster thought was his opponents’ view. > > Meditate on the difference. Why is the post being snarked upon important? Its the response that should be noted. Going 60 in a 45 is less egregious when trying to get the brat to school on time than it is trying to beat closing time at Taco Bell. But both are still speeding. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/209 "2017-09-28T00:46:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And this is where you or Shodan or somebody complains about my demanding an impossible standard of evidence (y’know, where someone compares like things instead of different things), and refuses to supply anything even slightly more convincing, right? Have you ever considered that your own biases makes you immune to persuasion on this point? You claim you want a comparison of like things, but have dismissed every single example as unlike. It may be that there are no good examples. It may also be that there are plenty of good examples and your biases render you incapable of seeing them. I see no reason to dismiss the latter possibility out of hand, and I suspect that the reality lies somewhere in between. But let’s disregard **Bricker** ’s concerns about potential partisan bias in moderation, the case for which I agree is not compelling. Can we at least agree that the moderation on this kind of snarky one-liner ought to be basically consistent and is not? If we disagree and you think the moderation team ought to be inconsistent, why? If we disagree and you think the moderation team is basically consistent in how they handle snarky one-liners intended to elicit a reaction but not to advance the discussion, then I contend that you’re simply incorrect, as evidenced by the basically good standing of the poster to whom **Fenris** alluded earlier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/210 "2017-09-28T00:59:28Z")
“Brilliant snark” will be too conveniently defined as “snark which reinforces my political biases.” I wouldn’t want to ask the mods to figure out the different grades of snark. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/211 "2017-09-28T01:30:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Depends on how “hate speech” is defined. > > _Don’t get me wrong, the Catholic Church is evil for any number of reasons._ > > Hate speech? No, criticism of the Church is obviously not hate speech by any definition, just as criticism of Saudi Arabia is not hate speech by any definition. But if you make it something like “Catholics are evil,” or “Catholics want poor people to suffer,” then sure. And, indeed, I think you’ll find that among the liberal posters disciplined for borderline trolling, it has been on the subject of religion. But I don’t think it matters. Don’t you think that, however defined, a rule against hate speech will have a disparate impact on (self-described, at least) conservatives in 2017? Even if you disagree, if you take it to be so for the sake of argument, does that make it “partisan bias” in a way that you maintain is a distinction without a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/212 "2017-09-28T01:32:30Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > But let’s disregard **Bricker** ’s concerns about potential partisan bias in moderation, the case for which I agree is not compelling. Can we at least agree that the moderation on this kind of snarky one-liner ought to be basically consistent and is not? Consistent with what is known of the poster’s history? Because that determines meaning, or it goes a long way to determining meaning. Context determines meaning. Personal history is a large part of context. Were **Una Persson** to say what **Shodan** said, it would mean something entirely different, because **Una** and **Shodan** have different histories here, and that context determines what they mean when they use words. Is it high sarcasm? Is it something they believe, said in an inflammatory way? More to the point: Is it intended to _help_ or _derail_ discussion? **AHunter3** turned it into a discussion-promoter, but **Ivory Tower Denizen** took the context of **Shodan** ’s history here into account, and now **Ivory Tower Denizen** is being grilled for it. Nobody can drop their history here, and expecting moderation to proceed as if there were no history to consider would be insane. It would deprive utterances of meaning. Our own legal system doesn’t attempt to deny history, so I cannot imagine the SDMB’s moderation trying to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/213 "2017-09-28T01:43:10Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > Have you ever considered that your own biases makes you immune to persuasion on this point? You claim you want a comparison of like things, but have dismissed every single example as unlike. Of course I’ve considered that. That’s why I’ve established in advance what a gold standard of comparison would be. Every single example has been nothing like that gold standard, so I’ve dismissed it. Then people get all petulant about how I dismiss crappy examples. It’s an old problem: they want to complain based on weak evidence, their weak evidence is unpersuasive, they blame everyone else instead of either finding better evidence or admitting their complaint lacks merit. > [@](#): > > It may be that there are no good examples. It may also be that there are plenty of good examples and your biases render you incapable of seeing them. I see no reason to dismiss the latter possibility out of hand, and I suspect that the reality lies somewhere in between. Show me the good examples–the same moderator in the same forum treating two similar posts differently, based on politics. Anything else is a less persuasive example. What we’ve seen so far are different moderators in different fora treating different posts differently, which is incredibly weak evidence. Again: you can complain that I don’t see the bias that other folks are predisposed to see, but the complaints, absent reasons why the evidence is strong, are uninteresting. > [@](#): > > Can we at least agree that the moderation on this kind of snarky one-liner ought to be basically consistent and is not? What would you have me add to what I already said on this issue: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If the board starts modding this sort of lame-shit one-liner that comes across as a petulant attempt at snark, the board will only be better for it. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/214 "2017-09-28T02:12:23Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Consistent with what is known of the poster’s history? Yes, of course. To be clear: I would not have warned **Shodan** , nor would I warn the poster to whom **Fenris** alluded for consistently doing exactly the kind of thing **Shodan** did in this case. I believe the two are broadly similar in behavior and the moderation in this instance is not. > [@LHod](#): > > Every single example has been nothing like that gold standard, so I’ve dismissed it. Fair enough. I suspect you’re deluding yourself as to your objectivity in judging what does and does not meet your standard, but if you think you are fairly and accurately assessing **Bricker** ’s complaint, more power to you. > [@LHoD](#): > > What would you have me add to what I already said on this issue Whether you think that the moderation in this case is consistent with moderation in the past. Your choice of the word “starts” suggests to me that you think it is not. If that’s the case, then I part ways with you in believing that the change you welcome should be precipitated by issuing a warning for the kind of thing which has not consistently drawn rebuke in the past. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/215 "2017-09-28T04:53:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I believe that people post “sarcastically contemptuous paraphrase[s] of what [they] believe [their] opponents believe in an attempt to make them look bad,” very frequently, and I strongly doubt that the new practice of the board’s moderators will be to issue warnings for them all. > > That suggests to me that **Shodan** got a warning because the political aspects of his presence here are disfavored; because “his opponents” in this case are liberal. > > Which suggests a bias in the way the board is moderated, a claim typically hotly denied by the gentry here. Exactly. And the predictable response will be to ignore the thread until the few people pointing out the hypocrisy lose interest. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/216 "2017-09-28T05:07:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think people post in that manner frequently as well, but that’s not the standard by which we moderate. Trolling is moderated, so to the extent that there is overlap between trolling and the criteria you and LHoD laid out, then the trolling aspect may be moderated. How one set of potentially offensive satirical or snarky short posts can be considered trolling and another set not is a pretty ridiculous standard to base penalizing posters on. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/217 "2017-09-28T05:21:30Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > So it’s sort of like getting Al Capone for income tax evasion since the feds couldn’t get him for murder or racketeering? Of course the difference is that Al Capone actually did evade income taxes, and **Shodan** broke no rules with this particular post. So it’s more like getting Al Capone for starting the great Chicago fire. Yeah sort of, except it would be more like Al Capone admitted to trolling a message board by finding a line where he wasn’t technically in violation of a rule but knew he was still annoying people just for the sake of annoying them. And then thumbed his nose at the posters and the mods while doing a touchdown dance on that line after they concluded there was nothing they could really do. But then later he got a warning for trolling in another way on that same message board after barely touching the line or maybe even stopping just short of it. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Also, until such time as Professor X becomes a mod here, I’m wary of moderation by mind-reading. It isn’t exactly mind reading given an available history, but to some extent almost any moderator decision involving a poster’s intent has to based partly on assumptions. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Shodan’s posting record on transgender issues is very easy to find and very well-known among many on here. He has consistently and persistently showed little but contempt and has made snide, baiting posts towards me and mine, almost always flying just under the warning line. And topical to this specific post, one of his specific “beefs” with people like me is he has expressed that self-identification of gender is something he does not believe in or support at best, and fraudulent at worst, if it does not align with chromosomal/physical makeup… > > … but I would ask humbly that they give Shodan a pass on this, because it just wasn’t clear enough, nor really offensive enough to be a real insult IMO. That is how trolling right up to the line usually works. I would point out that this sensible inclination to not warn someone for something that wasn’t outright blatant, even knowing with near certainty their intent, may be what led to: > [@Shodan](#): > > I have had two of my previous three warnings rescinded after the mods reconsidered. If that pattern continues unchanged it will make your prediction almost certain to come true: > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Honestly, he’s posted much worse about us, and probably will do so in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/218 "2017-09-28T06:06:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How one set of potentially offensive satirical or snarky short posts can be considered trolling and another set not is a pretty ridiculous standard to base penalizing posters on. Perhaps I could have been more clear - trolling is not evaluated based on shortness or satirical content. Trolling requires (from memory) posting with the primary or sole intent to rile people up. The other criteria listed above may overlap or may not, but it isn’t the basis for evaluation. Obviously discerning intent is subjective, but that is the role of the moderation team. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/219 "2017-09-28T07:04:02Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t understand why this even merited a mod note, let alone a warning. What did Shodan do wrong? Isn’t what he said–that a person’s gender is determined by what they say it is–pretty much the prevailing consensus on this board? This. In judging his post to be trolling the mod must read the post in a completely different context than I do. IMO, the post is a useful contribution as personal preference/self image is absent from the OP’s list. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/220 "2017-09-28T07:16:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the assumption that it was trolling was made because the specific language you used has been used before in dismissive and scornful ways about trans people and their gender identity. While I agree that the language might be seen as “dismissive and scornful”, that does not meet the bar for trolling in my book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033.md?page=12)