# Ivory Tower Denizen, Is There a Reason for a Warning Rather than an Explanation? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 23, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033 "2017-09-23T12:01:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/121 "2017-09-25T19:07:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the details of their transition (or non-transition, whatever it may be) is none of my business, unless they choose to reveal those details. If they want to be referred to as “she/her”, that’s how I’ll refer to them, and this goes for any human on the planet, no matter how they present themselves. You are saying the same thing that I said - that their gender is whatever they decide, and consultation with professionals or how long they thought about it are not as key. I will assume you aren’t trolling (even though you haven’t denied it). You can say it without getting warned. Go figure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/122 "2017-09-25T19:10:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll happily call anyone and everyone whatever they’d like me to call them. Exactly > [@](#): > > That has nothing to do with whether they’re actually trans or not – that’s just common courtesy, IMO. Issues of gender identity are not restricted to trans folk. In fact, that was clear in the thread we are talking about. Just to be clear, I was not necessarily talking about someone who is trans. > [@](#): > > As for how I’d answer if someone else asked me, unless I actually knew for sure what gender they identified as, I’d say “I don’t know – perhaps you should ask them”. I’m by no means an expert on trans issues and in my understanding “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer in cases in which someone is uncertain about something. But you do know what they prefer, so by saying you don’t know, what you’re really saying is “I know, but I don’t believer them”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/123 "2017-09-25T19:11:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are saying the same thing that I said - that their gender is whatever they decide, and consultation with professionals or how long they thought about it are not as key. > > I will assume you aren’t trolling (even though you haven’t denied it). You can say it without getting warned. Go figure. > > Regards, > Shodan In that post I didn’t say anything about their gender. They could identify as male but prefer that I call them “she/her”. They could identify as no gender, or third gender, or a million other possibilities. I don’t know, and unless I’m a close personal friend, I’m not going to ask. If they say “use she/her for me”, then I’ll use she/her, and by saying that I’m not saying anything about their gender identity. Pronouns /= gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/124 "2017-09-25T19:17:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you do know what they prefer, so by saying you don’t know, what you’re really saying is “I know, but I don’t believer them”. That’s not how I understood the question. I understood him asking me as if a random person with a beard walked up to me and said “I’m female” – I wouldn’t know how to respond. I wouldn’t make any assumptions at all about such a person, since that’s such weird and unusual behavior for a random stranger. They could be nuts, or playing a joke, or fulfilling the requirements of a bar bet, or an overly familiar trans person, or a million other possibilities. If it’s a friend or family, then the interaction would be very different. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/125 "2017-09-25T19:18:17Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Let me get this straight. If I say that I believe a person’s gender identity should be decided by the person himself/herself then that’s a slur unless I add “through long consideration and often consultation with gender identity professionals.” > > Are you kidding me? That is ludicrous. This was a terrible mod decision and if it is allowed to stand then there’s something very wrong with this board. I’m not saying anything like this at all. I said nothing at all about slurs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/126 "2017-09-25T19:19:00Z")
Part of the problem we have in discussing this is that our vocabulary is stuck back in a time when everything was still one thing or the other. You were male or female, even if you were trans-male or trans-female. But now we recognize a spectrum of gender identities crossed with a spectrum of sexual orientations. You might be male, female, intersex, or gender fluid. In that case, it makes perfectly good sense to say a person is what they self-identify as. Who are we to say otherwise (unless the person is certifiably insane, perhaps). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/127 "2017-09-25T19:34:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In that post I didn’t say anything about their gender. They could identify as male but prefer that I call them “she/her”. They could identify as no gender, or third gender, or a million other possibilities. I don’t know, and unless I’m a close personal friend, I’m not going to ask. If they say “use she/her for me”, then I’ll use she/her, and by saying that I’m not saying anything about their gender identity. Pronouns /= gender identity. You said > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In my understanding, there is significantly more to gender identity than “whatever they decide it is”. If you include an addendum “through long consideration and often consultation with gender identity professionals”, then I’d agree. So let’s not talk about pronouns - let’s stick to gender identity, as I did in the post cited in the OP. If a person announces a gender of “male who wants to be called she”, is that valid without long consideration? Or is it valid because that is what the person decided? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/128 "2017-09-25T19:58:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You said So let’s not talk about pronouns - let’s stick to gender identity, as I did in the post cited in the OP. If a person announces a gender of “male who wants to be called she”, is that valid without long consideration? Or is it valid because that is what the person decided? > > Regards, > Shodan What does “valid” mean? I’ll treat them that way, if that’s what you mean. If you mean some cosmic or philosophical level of validity, then I don’t know – these are all human-created concepts. I will treat them as a “male who wants to be called she”, and I won’t pry about personal details, and I’ll assume that she reached her gender identity after long consideration and not on a whim. If she says “I’m a male who wants to be called she, and I’ve decided based on a whim without thinking it through at all”, then I’ll assume that they’re not being serious, or are trying to make some sort of odd political point, or some other explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/129 "2017-09-25T19:58:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I will assume you aren’t trolling (even though you haven’t denied it). Wait. Do you really not understand the difference between denying an accusation before it’s made and denying it after? I find that hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/130 "2017-09-25T20:20:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does “valid” mean? I’ll treat them that way, if that’s what you mean. If you mean some cosmic or philosophical level of validity, then I don’t know – these are all human-created concepts. I will treat them as a “male who wants to be called she”, and I won’t pry about personal details, and I’ll assume that she reached her gender identity after long consideration and not on a whim. If she says “I’m a male who wants to be called she, and I’ve decided based on a whim without thinking it through at all”, then I’ll assume that they’re not being serious, or are trying to make some sort of odd political point, or some other explanation. How long a consideration did you give to identifying as male (I assume you identify as male)? I identify as male, and have never given it any consideration. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/131 "2017-09-25T20:26:10Z")
missed the edit window: And since you don’t think there is any “valid” determination of someone’ gender, isn’t that saying “it’s whatever they self-identify as”? Otherwise, you’re leaving it up to other people to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/132 "2017-09-25T20:34:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does “valid” mean? It means that all necessary and sufficient conditions have been met. > [@](#): > > I will treat them as a “male who wants to be called she”, and I won’t pry about personal details, and I’ll assume that she reached her gender identity after long consideration and not on a whim. So whatever that person decides to be their gender is the key factor. Not any of the other factors the OP in the linked thread - none of those are necessary. Which is what I said, and which is what I got warned for. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/133 "2017-09-25T20:39:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > missed the edit window: And since you don’t think there is any “valid” determination of someone’ gender, isn’t that saying “it’s whatever they self-identify as”? Otherwise, you’re leaving it up to other people to decide. I didn’t say the was no valid determination, just that I wasn’t sure what he meant. I take your point about consideration for cis folks, but in my understanding, trans identification and transition are not decided on a whim, but rather are part of a significant and long process. My only point is that the language that was moderated strikes me as flippant and implies non-serious decision making, when decisions for trans folks about their gender identity and presentation are very serious and well considered. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/134 "2017-09-25T20:42:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It means that all necessary and sufficient conditions have been met.So whatever that person decides to be their gender is the key factor. Not any of the other factors the OP in the linked thread - none of those are necessary. Which is what I said, and which is what I got warned for. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, I’ll just repeat that the specific phrase you used struck me as flippant and implied scorn. But you don’t have to take my recommendation. Maybe it’s just me. Or maybe you aren’t interested in using language that could be less likely to be misinterpreted. I offered my advice in the spirit of goodwill, as a recommendation that I thought you might honestly appreciate in order to better communicate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/135 "2017-09-25T20:44:14Z")
Again, I disagree with the warning and think a mod note would have been appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/136 "2017-09-25T20:49:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t say the was no valid determination, just that I wasn’t sure what he meant. > > I take your point about consideration for cis folks, but in my understanding, trans identification and transition are not decided on a whim, but rather are part of a significant and long process. > > My only point is that the language that was moderated strikes me as flippant and implies non-serious decision making, when decisions for trans folks about their gender identity and presentation are very serious and well considered. Not true anymore. Parents are advised to allow their children to choose their gender. It might be that many trans folks struggled for a long time since they were going against what everyone was telling them, but what if society were completely accepting of trans people? They shouldn’t have to bear some extra burden to prove their sexual identity, it’s only because society is so unaccepting that it can be such huge issue. But these days, kids routinely decide they are a different gender than what the rest of the world has been telling them. Same with being gay. It was a huge deal not that long ago, but now it’s much more common for kids to just come out and there’s no issue. (That is not to minimize the stigma that trans and gay people still face in many places, but in some places is just no bid deal. And no deep consideration is needed.) We need to shore up your progressive standing, **andy**. You’re slipping!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/137 "2017-09-25T21:04:59Z")
So, I’m confused. **Shodan** , you deny that you were trolling. But you wrote, > [@Shodan](#): > > I would have thought that the number 1 factor would be “whatever you decide it is”. Do you genuinely think that’s true? That’s your sincere belief? Because that doesn’t match other things you’ve posted on the issue before. It looks to me like, at best, a flip and sarcastically contemptuous paraphrase of those you disagree with, made in an attempt to make them look foolish. If that’s not what you’re doing, I’m not sure what you were doing. Now, posting something you don’t actually believe in an attempt to make other people look foolish might not always be trolling; but it is at best trolling’s second cousin. On the issue of mssmith’s post about conservatives–I will mention again how much I approve of Bone’s non-itchy trigger finger. At the same time, fewer smarmy one-sentence bon mots in political threads from all sides would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/138 "2017-09-25T21:07:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not true anymore. Parents are advised to allow their children to choose their gender. It might be that many trans folks struggled for a long time since they were going against what everyone was telling them, but what if society were completely accepting of trans people? They shouldn’t have to bear some extra burden to prove their sexual identity, it’s only because society is so unaccepting that it can be such huge issue. But these days, kids routinely decide they are a different gender than what the rest of the world has been telling them. Same with being gay. It was a huge deal not that long ago, but now it’s much more common for kids to just come out and there’s no issue. (That is not to minimize the stigma that trans and gay people still face in many places, but in some places is just no bid deal. And no deep consideration is needed.) > > We need to shore up your progressive standing, **andy**. You’re slipping!! 😉 This all sounds fine, and I don’t see how it conflicts with my posts (except for the word long, which I’ll retract). My only point is that gender identity is seriously (that’s a better word than long) considered, not decided flippantly or on a whim, for trans folks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/139 "2017-09-25T21:11:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So, I’m confused. **Shodan** , you deny that you were trolling. But you wrote, > > Do you genuinely think that’s true? That’s your sincere belief? > > Because that doesn’t match other things you’ve posted on the issue before. It looks to me like, at best, a flip and sarcastically contemptuous paraphrase of those you disagree with, made in an attempt to make them look foolish. If that’s not what you’re doing, I’m not sure what you were doing. > > Now, posting something you don’t actually believe in an attempt to make other people look foolish might not always be trolling; but it is at best trolling’s second cousin. > > On the issue of mssmith’s post about conservatives–I will mention again how much I approve of Bone’s non-itchy trigger finger. At the same time, fewer smarmy one-sentence bon mots in political threads from all sides would be appreciated. That’s a good question. Shodan, do you believe that one’s gender is determined by “whatever they decide it is”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033/140 "2017-09-25T21:13:51Z")
Wait, “USians” is supposed to be a big deal? I usually refer to myself as “American”… but that’s because I’m usually speaking in a context (namely, with other nationals of the United States of America) where the meaning of that term is clear. To a foreigner, the context might not be so clear, and so it makes sense to use the less ambiguous “USian”. Am I supposed to be insulted by that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ivory-tower-denizen-is-there-a-reason-for-a-warning-rather-than-an-explanation/797033.md?page=8)