# J & E Rosenberg — the First or the Only? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 13, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683 "2014-01-13T18:24:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/1 "2014-01-13T18:24:36Z")
I’ve found some sources that say Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were the only civilians ever executed for treason in the US. Other sources say they were the first civilians, implying there have been other since. Does anyone know which is correct? Believe it or not, I need an answer fast. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/2 "2014-01-13T19:07:19Z")
Weren’t some people executed for the murder of Mr. Lincoln ? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/3 "2014-01-13T19:16:41Z")
This [Wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_convicted_of_treason) says neither first nor only - though they appear to qualify as last. Others include: > [@](#): > > - John Brown, convicted of treason against the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1859 and executed for attempting to organize armed resistance to slavery. > - Aaron Dwight Stevens, took part in John Brown’s raid and was executed in 1860 for treason against Virginia. > - William Bruce Mumford, convicted of treason and hanged in 1862 for tearing down a United States flag during the American Civil War. > - Mary Surratt, Lewis Powell, David Herold, and George Atzerodt, all convicted by military tribunal and hanged on July 7, 1865 for treason and conspiracy related to the Lincoln assassination. > - Herbert Hans Haupt, German-born naturalized U.S. citizen, was convicted of treason in 1942 and executed after being named as a German spy by fellow German spies defecting to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/4 "2014-01-13T22:36:53Z")
It does appear from **Xema** ’s list, though, that the Rosenbergs were the first and, to date, only people convicted of treason under civilian federal law. John Brown and his supporters were tried for treason against a state, and the others were tried by military tribunals. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/5 "2014-01-14T02:50:24Z")
Strictly speaking, the Rosenbergs were convicted of (and executed for) espionage, not treason. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/6 "2014-01-14T03:19:58Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > I’ve found some sources that say Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were the only civilians ever executed for treason in the US. Other sources say they were the first civilians, implying there have been other since. > > Does anyone know which is correct? > > Believe it or not, I need an answer fast. > > Thanks. Well, they were executed publicly. Meaning they had a trial and lots of publicity. But how many people are executed by the “Black Ops” part of any government? Not just the U.S. gov. But any modern gov. Seems to me lots of murders take place by most any govt that wants to make someone disappear because they are too embarassing to allow to live and the publicity surrounding a trial would be even more embarassing. It’s easier and quieter just to make them disappear. Hollywood would have us believe this is a very common practice. So, when you ask how many civilians were executed for treason, do you include secret executions? Or just public ones? And if you do include secret ones, how many of those do you think really do take place? If I was the head of a modern government, I would have all the requisite manpower, expertise and equipment to make people disappear and not get caught. After all, an individual only has a very limited amount of resources and experience to make this sort of thing happen. But if it’s true that most governments do secret executions, they’ve been doing them for many years and have a wealth of experience how to do them and not get caught. Personally, I have no idea if this actually happens like Hollywood would have us believe. But I’d sure like to know if anyone here has any opinions that are based on anything more than just guesses. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/7 "2014-01-14T03:37:03Z")
> [@Lazlo Hapsburg](#): > > Well, they were executed publicly. Meaning they had a trial and lots of publicity. > > But how many people are executed by the “Black Ops” part of any government? Not just the U.S. gov. But any modern gov. Seems to me lots of murders take place by most any govt that wants to make someone disappear because they are too embarassing to allow to live and the publicity surrounding a trial would be even more embarassing. It’s easier and quieter just to make them disappear. > > Hollywood would have us believe this is a very common practice. > > So, when you ask how many civilians were executed for treason, do you include secret executions? Or just public ones? > > And if you do include secret ones, how many of those do you think really do take place? > > If I was the head of a modern government, I would have all the requisite manpower, expertise and equipment to make people disappear and not get caught. > > After all, an individual only has a very limited amount of resources and experience to make this sort of thing happen. But if it’s true that most governments do secret executions, they’ve been doing them for many years and have a wealth of experience how to do them and not get caught. > > Personally, I have no idea if this actually happens like Hollywood would have us believe. But I’d sure like to know if anyone here has any opinions that are based on anything more than just guesses. **Lazlo**. Since we’re in General Questions, let’s stick to answering the OP. Bringing up theoretical things is interesting, but not relavent to the OP, If you want to start your own thread about such, feel free. **samclem** , moderator ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/8 "2014-01-14T03:46:23Z")
> [@Lazlo Hapsburg](#): > > … do you include secret executions? Or just public ones? Public ones. It’s quite a stretch to say that a hypothetical secret murder represents an execution for treason. In a country with a functioning legal system, you aren’t guilty of treason until prosecuted and convicted by a court. For an analogy, suppose a drunk driver killed Fred’s daughter, so Fred kills the drunk driver. Is that driver now counted among those who were “executed for murder”? ETA: Posted before seeing samclem’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-e-rosenberg-the-first-or-the-only/678683/9 "2014-01-14T05:32:54Z")
Sorry.