# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 111
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2204 "2020-08-02T18:10:56Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I haven’t discounted trans suicides at all. _To **me** _ you did. See how that works? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2205 "2020-08-02T18:14:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _To **me** _ you did. > > See how that works? I can see how bad of a job you’re doing in this discussion right now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2206 "2020-08-02T18:18:12Z")
Oh sorry, I forgot only you get to be subjective… ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2207 "2020-08-02T18:19:34Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Kind of like a white person self-identifying as black. You are picking up what I’m laying down, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2208 "2020-08-02T19:13:49Z")
It only took me about 15 seconds on Google to find out that despite his experiences (which include a horribly botched surgically transition) and his strong opinion against medical transitioning - Scott Newgent considers himself a to be a man and articles about him use male pronouns. Any reason you’re referring to him as a female? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2209 "2020-08-02T19:23:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To me it’s no different than opponents of gay or interracial marriage insisting that it’s not really marriage. But the usage of these words has changed. It really is the same, isn’t it? This reminds me so much of all the rhetoric about how if we let gay people get married, the word “marriage” along with the underlying concept will have lost all meaning and no one will ever get married anymore, leading to the destruction of society. Then, in the next breath, they’d willfully fail to understand why gays weren’t happy with “civil unions”, because it’s the exact same thing and it doesn’t matter what you call it -why do the gays insist on getting the word “marriage” when words are so meaningless. Right wing logic at its finest. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2210 "2020-08-02T19:28:28Z")
The longer this thread goes on, the more it seems that the root conflict is that some people believe gender identity to be a subjective feeling while others see it as an objective (if internal) reality. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2211 "2020-08-02T19:41:21Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > It only took me about 15 seconds on Google to find out that despite his experiences (which include a horribly botched surgically transition) and his strong opinion against medical transitioning - Scott Newgent considers himself a to be a man and articles about him use male pronouns. > > Any reason you’re referring to him as a female? Because he’s a trans man. Again, this is the kind of semantic absurdity that is only going to alienate and aggravate people. If he wasn’t a female, then he wouldn’t be trans. _Transgender becomes an incoherent concept when we can’t acknowledge that the body’s sex differs from the person’s gender identity_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2212 "2020-08-02T19:50:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Should we? Do you think it might not depend on the degree of stigmatization? I wouldn’t necessarily put it in terms of “degrees” of stigmatization, but it should be recognized that sexual minorities face a different kind of hurdle than racial minorities in that we’re often ostracized by our families and existing social circles for our identities. Pretty much nobody was ever disowned by their momma for coming out as black, but that’s a distressingly common situation for queer people, and that absolutely plays a roll in suicide rates. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2213 "2020-08-02T19:57:14Z")
I asked you a question earlier but I don’t think you answered it. No worries if you don’t want to. But it surprising to see you suggest gender _isn’t_ subjective, given the definition you use for it. This is what I asked you earlier. > [@YWTF](#): > > Do you believe men inherently have different “behavioral, cultural, or psychological” traits than women? Do you believe a man that exhibits “female” traits (which strangely are never specified…we’re all supposed to just know what this means, but whatever) cannot be a man? If your concept of gender entails a certain set of behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits, how can this be anything except subjective? If you can’t even describe to me what these traits look like exactly, then how is anyone supposed to treat this as an objective thing? There is nothing wrong with subjectivity, by the way. Lots of concepts that are valid are subjective. Like beauty and charm. So yes, many people believe gender is wholly subjective, but that doesn’t mean they disbelieve in it. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2214 "2020-08-02T20:23:15Z")
It’s possible you’re conflating gender expression and gender identity here. Gender identity is an objective internal sense of what one’s own gender is. I say “objective” not because there are a well known set of criteria or anything, but rather because it’s a) apparently inborn or at least formed early on in most people and rarely changes and b) not open to interpretation by other people. Gender expression is the external presentation, and that is almost certainly subjective. If the idea of an objective internal gender identity is foreign to some people, that could be the source of some of the conflict here. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2215 "2020-08-02T20:30:07Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > If he wasn’t a female, then he wouldn’t be trans. _Transgender becomes an incoherent concept when we can’t acknowledge that the body’s sex differs from the person’s gender identity_ . I don’t know that no one’s saying we can’t acknowledge that. The problem is that I don’t think everyone treats the primary meaning of “female” as “possessing female anatomy”. If you simply prefixed “anatomically” to “female” when referring to transmen (for example), it might grease some of the friction some of us feel in trying to reconcile the seeming oxymoron. For example, “Joe Transgender is female” is jarring, othering, and feels like trans erasure, because his _gender_ is male, not female. “Joe Transgender is _anatomically_ female”, on the other hand, is a simple statement of fact (whether true or not). You could also use “genetically female” for someone with XX chromosomes. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2216 "2020-08-02T20:49:29Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > It’s possible you’re conflating gender expression and gender identity here. I’m going by the definition of gender that you gave me earlier. [“the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex”](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender). So when you claim someone has a male gender identity, is it not fair to assume you mean they identify with certain traits? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2217 "2020-08-02T20:53:58Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > The problem is that I don’t think everyone treats the primary meaning of “female” as “possessing female anatomy”. If you simply prefixed “anatomically” to “female” when referring to transmen (for example), it might grease some of the friction some of us feel in trying to reconcile the seeming oxymoron. It’s not an oxymoron at all, since you can’t be a trans man and _not_ also be female. What would be oxymoronic is saying a trans man is actually male. Having a male gender identity doesn’t make someone a male. It means they have a male gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2218 "2020-08-02T20:59:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > t’s always easier to assume those who disagree with you are dishonest, but have you considered the possibility that many trans folks and allies sincerely feel this way, and that they are concerned about mental health and sky high suicide rates when advocating for kinder language use when discussing trans issues? Some are likely concerned. Some just want to shut down debate and scare people into silence, and that’s what was happening here. Emotional blackmail is not an argument, and disagreeing with Banquet Bear is not abusing trans people or acting in contempt. Stating that an adult male is a man is not “rhetorically erasing” anyone. That statement is actually true. You haven’t succeeded in getting rid of that meaning of the word yet. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If they’re men, then what’s the need for “trans women”? They’re just men, by that language. The need is, one presumes, that they are trans women. A trans woman is a man who identifies as a woman. (Or transwoman; arguing over whether there should be a space or not is a waste of time.) Don’t we want to have a term for that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2219 "2020-08-02T21:06:25Z")
‘Stating that a relationship between two men is not a marriage is actually true’. Somehow I remain unconvinced by your certainty that the meanings of these words hasn’t changed and expanded. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2220 "2020-08-02T21:08:53Z")
I would agree that the meaning of that word has expanded. It doesn’t change the fact that a committed relationship between a man and a woman is a marriage, and calling that a marriage is not “Rhetorical erasure” of same sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2221 "2020-08-02T21:14:37Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Gender identity is an objective internal sense of what one’s own gender is. I say “objective” not because there are a well known set of criteria or anything, but rather because it’s a) apparently inborn or at least formed early on in most people and rarely changes and b) not open to interpretation by other people. This is still subjective, though. If there is no way to know whether someone’s internal sense of self accurately reflects their gender as oppose to their personality or some other thing, it’s a purely subjective determination. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2222 "2020-08-02T21:15:02Z")
Insisting that gay marriage is not actually marriage would indeed be rhetorical erasure of gay marriage, right? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2223 "2020-08-02T21:22:57Z")
Of course, but your analogy is really starting to fall apart. Let’s get into that discussion; if the words “man” and “woman” don’t mean male and female adult, what word do you want to use for those concepts? I assume “cisman” and “ciswoman” are unacceptable, since that is not precisely what they mean. Do we have words we can use? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=110) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=112)