# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 126
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2504 "2020-08-14T20:35:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m not going to spend more time re-explaining what I’ve already said to somebody who’s complaining that my idea “wouldn’t work” without even having bothered to read or understand what it is. What you aren’t understanding is that your perception of these different tiers receiving equal standing in the eyes of the public is an almost embarrassingly naive view of how sports work. Also the idea that women would be competitive in the 4th tier is a joke. More like 40th tier. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2505 "2020-08-14T20:35:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, folks, make up your minds: are human males and females so different that there will be essentially zero overlap in their basic physical capacity, and therefore in practice no mixed-sex sport competition categories? Or are a few of the strongest human females physically quite comparable to a few of the weakest human males and therefore able to fairly compete against them in a sport competition category that includes them both? Your two middle categories would presumably have a mix of sexes, taking the most physically gifted women (eg Venus and Serena Williams) out of the current ‘female’ category and into the mixed sex one where they have less chance of winning. Meanwhile the second tier of female athletes would benefit by their absence. This seems rather counterintuitive. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2506 "2020-08-14T20:37:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Your two middle categories would presumably have a mix of sexes, taking the most physically gifted women (eg Venus and Serena Williams) out of the current ‘female’ category and into the mixed sex one where they have less chance of winning. Not even. Serena Williams might barely qualify for the lowest tier. I doubt a single other female tennis player would qualify for ANY of Kimstu’s tiers; it’d be nothing but dudes + Serena. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2507 "2020-08-14T20:37:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If a transgender male athlete has biologically female birth sex and thus qualifies for membership on team A, but identifies as male and uses male pronouns and the nouns “boy” and/or “man” to refer to himself, then yes, I do see something wrong with calling this the girls’/women’s team. It is deliberately and unnecessarily erasing this boy’s/man’s gender identity. Fair enough. See my last response. I think it’s highly unrealistic to expect people to substitute “women’s gymnastics” with “Team A gymnastics” though. “Female gymnastics” is fine but I’m sure that will be objectionable to someone concerned about identity. At a certain point, the tabooification of female-specific language becomes a problem. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2508 "2020-08-14T20:38:11Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > What you aren’t understanding is that your perception of these different tiers receiving equal standing in the eyes of the public is an almost embarrassingly naive view of how sports work. Also the idea that women would be competitive in the 4th tier is a joke. More like 40th tier. It wouldn’t be that bad. Think of it like paralympic [categories](https://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/the-news-explained/paralympic-classification-what-do-the-categories-m/), or like allowing male weightlifters under 62kg to compete against 90kg+ female ones because they have similar lifting ability. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2509 "2020-08-14T20:39:28Z")
I’m thinking about it in the context of the best female soccer TEAMS being unable to compete with under-15 boys club teams. And the greatest female tennis player to ever live getting smoked by the 300th ranked male tennis player who wasn’t really even trying. It’d be like if my local high school had a female football team, and then they played a legit game against the current-Superbowl-champion Kansas City Chiefs and the high school girls totally smoke the Chiefs 42-3. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2510 "2020-08-14T20:40:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You’re just writing in italicized bolded caps and acting like this is providing useful information. It isn’t. I’m sorry. Let me ask: Do you share Ellis\_Dee’s misunderstanding about the prospect of low-ranked male athletes being allowed to compete against, and generally defeat, high-ranked female athletes in my proposed multi-level PPS system? Or have I made it adequately clear already that in such a proposed system, cisgender male athletes, even the most ill-trained or unskilled, would overwhelmingly be disqualified from competing in the PPS-level categories dominated by even the most talented and high-achieving cisgender female athletes? If so, perhaps you could help out with explaining that to Ellis\_Dee in a way that they will understand. Because I’ve explained how the system works several times already in these recent posts, and I don’t really know how to make it any clearer. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2511 "2020-08-14T20:40:59Z")
So you’d be satisfied with male and female leagues instead of men and women leagues? Why did you go through the mind-boggling PPS bullshit if your beef is with our use of gendered terms than sex terms? Please don’t act like WE are the ones being obtuse around here. My patience is limited today, and I like you too much to flip out on you in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2512 "2020-08-14T20:44:25Z")
I don’t understand why your system would allow _any_ sex segregation. How is it an improvement over the system we have now? I’m sorry for my last fiery post, but this whole conversation has been super frustrating for me. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2513 "2020-08-14T20:46:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If so, perhaps you could help out with explaining that to Ellis\_Dee in a way that they will understand. You aren’t understanding. All the men who qualify for the women’s tier – and there would be more of them than there are women – would utterly dominate the women. I’m not saying the best men would beat the best women. I’m saying that middling and average men who are small and would qualify for the A league would both outnumber the women and be able to easily beat the women without really trying. This has been explained to you multiple times. (eg: “Tons of guys at the gym would kill for the chance to play at Madison Square Garden.”) You seem to be willfully ignoring this fact at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2514 "2020-08-14T20:50:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So you’d be satisfied with male and female leagues instead of men and women leagues? No, I want the categories designated by a non-sex/gender label such as “A” and “B”. I thought my multiple repetitions of that condition made it very clear. I apologize if I somewhere gave a misleading impression by letting pass another poster’s reference to “male” and “female” leagues in such a way that it seemed I was in favor of that nomenclature, but I’ve scrolled back through several posts and can’t find exactly what you’re referring to. > [@monstro](#): > > Why did you go through the mind-boggling PPS bullshit if your beef is with our use of gendered terms than sex terms? First, I think it’s important, as I’ve said repeatedly, that the different competition categories not be designated by either gender identity or biological sex, even if in a two-level system we might simply use biological birth sex as a proxy for physical prowess. Second, I still think there could be value in having a multi-tiered system that had more options for physical prowess level than just “Biologically Male” and “Biologically Female”. > [@monstro](#): > > My patience is limited today, and I like you too much to flip out on you in the Pit. I like you too but don’t let that stop you if you need to Pit me, Pit ranting is a form of mental health self-care and I don’t take it personal. (Not that I’m trying to provoke you into Pitting me, though.) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2515 "2020-08-14T20:52:20Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > All the men who qualify for the women’s tier – and there would be more of them than there are women – would utterly dominate the women. If that was the case it would just mean you’re using the wrong criteria for who qualifies. If the criteria were being unable to run faster than a certain speed, lift more than a certain weight, do more than one pull up, having a max lung capacity under a certain amount, or whatever would eliminate the vast majority of males, then this wouldn’t happen. Of course, how the heck you measure these abilities without allowing for cheating is an open question. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2516 "2020-08-14T20:54:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If that was the case it would just mean you’re using the wrong criteria for who qualifies. If the criteria were being unable to run faster than a certain speed, lift more than a certain weight, do more than one pull up, having a max lung capacity under a certain amount, or whatever would eliminate the vast majority of males, then this wouldn’t happen. Of course, how the heck you measure these abilities without allowing for cheating is an open question. But this requires rigging the categories to ensure female representation. What’s the point of these categories then, when you could such go to sex-based binary system? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2517 "2020-08-14T20:55:41Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If that was the case it would just mean you’re using the wrong criteria for who qualifies. If the criteria were being unable to run faster than a certain speed, lift more than a certain weight, do more than one pull up, having a max lung capacity under a certain amount, or whatever would eliminate the vast majority of males, then this wouldn’t happen. Any system of measure that managed to successfully bar a bazillion short and thin guys (think 5’6", 150 pounds) from overwhelming the “women’s” tier would be indistinguishable from just segregating by birth sex. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2518 "2020-08-14T21:00:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > name me 10 famous bantamweight boxers These days most people cannot name ten famous boxers at all. There are famous middleweights, of course, which is several tiers below heavyweight. Boxing, however, and maybe MMA (which is supplanting it) is really the ONLY major professional sport in which division by some category other than sex works, commercially speaking. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Or are a few of the strongest human females physically quite comparable to a few of the weakest human males and therefore able to fairly compete against them in a sport competition category that includes them both? You aren’t listening to what a lot of people who understand the business of sports are trying to explain. Yes, Serena Williams could defeat very physically untalented men. She would also have to get a 9-to-5 job under such a system, **because no one would pay her to play tennis.** Not a penny. No woman in the world, not a single one, could be a tennis pro, because no one would pay to watch them. Certainly not enough people for her to make a living at it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2519 "2020-08-14T21:00:39Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You aren’t understanding. All the men who qualify for the women’s tier – and there would be more of them than there are women – would utterly dominate the women. […] > > […] middling and average men who are small and would qualify for the A league would both outnumber the women and be able to easily beat the women without really trying. > [@YWTF](#): > > Males are stronger than females in much the same way that chimpanzees are stronger than humans. It’s not just muscle size or some other simple thing. They are built entirely differently. Skeletal conformation, bone density, musculature, limb proportions, relative hand and feet size…I mean, the list is endless. I repeat: Make up your minds, folks. If there are no, or almost no, cisgender men who are not innately physically more powerful than the majority of cisgender women, then there would be no or almost no cisgender men who would “qualify for the women’s tier” in a PPS system. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2520 "2020-08-14T21:01:26Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Any system of measure that managed to successfully bar a bazillion short and thin guys (think 5’6", 150 pounds) from overwhelming the “women’s” tier would be indistinguishable from just segregating by birth gender. > [@YWTF](#): > > But this requires rigging the categories to ensure female representation. What’s the point of these categories then, when you could such go to sex-based binary system? I agree it would be pointless if there were only two categories, but you’d probably want something like it if you were going to have more than two. And as I’ve said, I see a lot of other problems with the idea. Segregating people based on literal athletic ability kinda seems to miss the point of sports. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2521 "2020-08-14T21:04:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I repeat: Make up your minds, folks. If there are no, or almost no, cisgender men who are not innately physically more powerful than the majority of cisgender women, then there would be no or almost no cisgender men who would “qualify for the women’s tier” in a PPS system. Even weaker men would dominate stronger women at sports. It’s not just strength. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2522 "2020-08-14T21:04:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Or have I made it adequately clear already that in such a proposed system, cisgender male athletes, even the most ill-trained or unskilled, would overwhelmingly be disqualified from competing in the PPS-level categories dominated by even the most talented and high-achieving cisgender female athletes? I don’t believe this is realistic. If we are talking simple calculus of strength, speed, ability to run jump and do athletic things, the best women in the world would smoke 75% of the male population. But the remaining 25% is HUGE. There may be a handful of women who are Serena’s equals athletically, but there are tens of thousands of men who are. Those tens of thousands of men won’t dominate Serena, they are only her equal, but they’ll suck up all the air. She won’t be the best of the 200 women on the tour, she’ll be one of the 5 women competing against 195 men who make up the rest of the tier. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2523 "2020-08-14T21:05:55Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There may be a handful of women who are Serena’s equals athletically, but there are tens of thousands of men who are. Those tens of thousands of men won’t dominate Serena, they are only her equal, but they’ll suck up all the air. She won’t be the best of the 200 women on the tour, she’ll be one of the 5 women competing against 195 men who make up the rest of the tier. That’s exactly what she’s not understanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=125) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=127)