# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 140
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2784 "2020-08-22T13:12:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But it’s still a thing, because of that inherent sexism. Ideally, like I said before, none of this would matter. **But because our society is so sexist, folks’ internal wiring one way or the other can strongly correlate with the “roles” assigned to men or women**. I don’t know exactly how this works, but it quite clearly does, based on both my own feelings about my gender identity and that of trans people (and many cis women) I’ve spoken to and read from. So if you agree that treating a person as a man or women implies sexism and gender roles, it is perplexing to me why anyone concoct special definitions for man and woman that affirms this. If you’re calling people women because they are “acting like women do” this is literally affirming sexism. I do not see how this is progressive or sane at all. Y’all don’t seem to appreciate how sinister this looks from the outside. I think that is what is most frustrating to me in this debate. Sexism is not inherent. It is learned. If we were only talking about adults, that would be one thing. But we are talking about impressionable children also absorbing these ideas. They pick up on which roles and stereotypes men and women are pressured to conform to early in life. When they gravitate to the “wrong” roles and stereotypes, a large number of them will think this means they are actually trans.This doesn’t just mean changing pronouns. Puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, surgeries, pressure to pass…seriously, all of this is a consequence of affirming sexism in the labeling of men and women. This is what JKR expressed concern about in her essay. The number of children referred to gender identity clinics has seen a significant increase worldwide, [but especially among females.](https://www.genderhq.org/increase-trans-females-nonbinary-dysphoria). ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2785 "2020-08-22T13:24:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My point here is that, in the past, we only had a superficial understanding of who had a female or male reproductive system. If someone appeared to have a vagina, then they would have been assumed to be a woman, even if they had no womb because they had some XY intersex condition. And if they appeared to have a penis, they would have been assumed to be men, even if they had some XX intersex condition. That only seems to have changed relatively recently, and far from universally. Since none of this is relevant to the vast majority of transwomen, I don’t know what the point of this point is. Intersex individuals have as much to do with gender identity as gay marriage does. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2786 "2020-08-22T13:29:28Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > So if you agree that treating a person as a man or women implies sexism and gender roles, it is perplexing to me why anyone concoct special definitions for man and woman that affirms this. If you’re calling people women because they are “acting like women do” this is literally affirming sexism. I do not see how this is progressive or sane at all. Y’all don’t seem to appreciate how sinister this looks from the outside. I think that is what is most frustrating to me in this debate. ISTM that this is a necessity in a sexist society. I don’t call peoplw women because they are “acting like women”, but just as it’s impossible to pretend “I don’t see race” in a racist society, it’s impossible to pretend to not see or consider gender (and gender identity) in a sexist society. In a truly fair and decent society, it wouldn’t matter – just like in such a society, we wouldn’t need to consider race, because it wouldn’t matter. These issues aren’t exactly the same – there really are biological differences between men and women, while there are no significant biological differences between the “races” (which are, of course, defined by sociology rather than biology). But I think they’re similar in this specific way. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2787 "2020-08-22T13:49:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t call peoplw women because they are “acting like women”, but just as it’s impossible to pretend “I don’t see race” in a racist society, it’s impossible to pretend to not see or consider gender (and gender identity) in a sexist society. What you’re advocating for is the equivalent to calling Eminem a black man and Bryant Gumble white. Society has ideas of how white and black people are supposed to behave, and whenever we see these behaviors, we are tempted to label people accordingly. Those who are socially conscious understand this is racism and push against it, even though we know that on a certain level, everyone thinks this way. Gender is to sex as racial stereotypes are to race. Instead of pushing against sexist labeling, you are endorsing it. You are defending it. You are putting into little kids heads that acting in a certain way is what makes someone a woman or man. It is just as sinister as allowing black children to believe being book smart makes someone white. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2788 "2020-08-22T13:58:14Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > What you’re advocating for is the equivalent to calling Eminem a black man and Bryant Gumble white. Society has ideas of how white and black people are supposed to behave, and whenever we see these behaviors, we are tempted to label people accordingly. Those who are socially conscious understand this is racism and push against it, even though we know that on a certain level, everyone thinks this way. > > Gender is to sex as racial stereotypes are to race. Instead of pushing against sexist labeling, you are endorsing it. You are defending it. You are putting into little kids heads that acting in a certain way is what makes someone a woman or man. > > It is just as sinister as allowing black children to believe being book smart makes someone white. This is not remotely how I see it, and this doesn’t come close to accurately characterizing my views. I’m unaware of any legitimate notion of “race identity” (and the examples you list don’t even identify as another race), unlike the medically widely acknowledged gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2789 "2020-08-22T14:03:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not remotely how I see it, and this doesn’t come close to accurately characterizing my views. I’m unaware of any legitimate notion of “race identity”, unlike the medically widely acknowledged gender identity. So what does it mean to meet the social definition of a woman? Could a transwoman who lives and presents just as you do meet this definition? If you don’t think you aren’t essentially doing the gender equivalent to calling Bryant Gumble a white man, then you need to define your terms better. The more you post on this topic, the more convinced I become that you don’t really even know what your own beliefs are. You are using words and terms, but it’s not evident that there is lot of thought behind them. Still wondering whether you and @Cheesesteak read that Duncan essay. I’m going to conclude that you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2790 "2020-08-22T14:04:49Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > The more you post on this topic, the more convinced I become that you don’t really even know what your own beliefs are. Then I’ll stop engaging with you. Thank you for your thoughts, and I’m sorry if I wasn’t able to present my own clearly. I do my best, but perhaps I failed. Or perhaps you did. Either way, this discussion appears to be pointless. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2791 "2020-08-22T14:10:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ISTM that this is a necessity in a sexist society. I don’t call peoplw women because they are “acting like women”, but just as it’s impossible to pretend “I don’t see race” in a racist society, it’s impossible to pretend to not see or consider gender (and gender identity) in a sexist society. In a truly fair and decent society, it wouldn’t matter – just like in such a society, we wouldn’t need to consider race, because it wouldn’t matter. These issues aren’t exactly the same – there really are biological differences between men and women, while there are no significant biological differences between the “races” (which are, of course, defined by sociology rather than biology). But I think they’re similar in this specific way. What do you think would happen in this same racist society if you told children "sorry, we can’t fix the racism, but if you don’t fit the stereotypes and don’t like how society treats you then maybe you’re transracial; you can change race and _then_ we’ll insist people see you differently. (And here’s some drugs you can take to change your skin colour, later you can get plastic surgery to confirm your racial identity.) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > just as it’s impossible to pretend “I don’t see race” in a racist society, it’s impossible to pretend to not see or consider gender (and gender identity) in a sexist society. Gender identity is inherently invisible. What is actually impossible is to pretend not to see or consider sex. Some people are able to ‘pass’ as the opposite sex, especially with hormone therapy etc, but that is also true for race. And those people will indeed be treated differently. But for those who are unable or unwilling to do that, what are we supposed to do other than pretend? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2792 "2020-08-22T14:12:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then I’ll stop engaging with you. Thank you for your thoughts, and I’m sorry if I wasn’t able to present my own clearly. I do my best, but perhaps I failed. Or perhaps you did. Either way, this discussion appears to be pointless. It’s not pointless, since I’m trying to give you feedback you probably haven’t received before. I understand that you’re trying your best. But it doesn’t appear that you’ve done quality assurance on your own ideas to make sure they hold together. I understand that I’m coming across as a bit strident. That is because the sexism in this thread is bit overpowering. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2793 "2020-08-22T14:22:34Z")
I’m still waiting for someone to reconcile the idea of gender affirmation being a fundamental right with the 58 gender concept. Why is a person who identifies as a woman entitled to have access to a restroom that affirms their woman identity, but a person who identifies as nonbinary is not entitled to use a restroom that affirms their nonbinary identity? By only having men’s and women’s restrooms, aren’t we saying that some gender identities are more valid than others? Or are both of individuals entitled to a restroom that affirms their identity, and the fact that we don’t provide nonbinary accommodations indicates how hateful and oppressive our society is towards nonbinary folks? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2794 "2020-08-22T14:31:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m still waiting for someone to reconcile the idea of gender affirmation being a fundamental right with the 58 gender concept. @Cheesesteak acted like I kicked a puppy for suggesting there are times when treating gender affirmative as a human right doesn’t make sense. Make of that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2795 "2020-08-22T18:52:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then I’ll stop engaging with you. Thank you for your thoughts, and I’m sorry if I wasn’t able to present my own clearly. I do my best, but perhaps I failed. Or perhaps you did. Either way, this discussion appears to be pointless. That’s why I don’t engage the TERFs on this topic. Their minds are made up and we are all deceptive perverts to them, so why bother. You see it from all the insane conspiracy theories they post about us. They can hate us all they want, I don’t care, but I’m not going to be a target for their hate. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2796 "2020-08-22T18:54:31Z")
No one in this thread has espoused hate against trans people. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2797 "2020-08-22T20:03:24Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Their minds are made up and we are all deceptive perverts to them, so why bother. I think it is very unfair to make a general complaint which implies that everyone with a critical thought on this matter is a TERF who equates trans people with perverts. Who are you referring to? Please be specific and refer to their posts. You can report them and they will be banned. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2798 "2020-08-22T20:24:29Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Please be specific and refer to their posts. You can report them and they will be banned. …LOL. Give me a fucking break. The moderators have made their position clear on transgender posters. They have to debate their right to exist. Nobody is going to get banned here. Reporting them **will do nothing**. They can’t get banned for **thoughts in their heads**. If YWTF can claim to know what is going on in male posters heads (and you stay silent about it) then Boudicca90 can say what she thinks as well. Its pretty telling that you’ve decided to call her out but not anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2799 "2020-08-22T20:53:29Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > there are times when treating gender affirmative as a human right doesn’t make sense. Human rights make sense all the time or they’re nothing. You think their right to be recognized as women is subject to your personal convenience. Which means you don’t really believe they have any human rights at all. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2800 "2020-08-22T20:54:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …LOL. Give me a fucking break. The moderators have made their position clear on transgender posters. They have to debate their right to exist. Nobody is going to get banned here. Reporting them **will do nothing**. They can’t get banned for **thoughts in their heads**. If YWTF can claim to know what is going on in male posters heads (and you stay silent about it) then Boudicca90 can say what she thinks as well. Its pretty telling that you’ve decided to call her out but not anyone else. Exactly! There are a few specific posters in this thread (who tend to dominate the conversation here) who have an ideology where we are considered deceptive and dangerous and constantly misgender us and it’s all perfectly acceptable per this board’s rules. There’s nothing to report because this is all still perfectly acceptable in our society, and that needs to change. But that doesn’t mean I won’t speak out against it in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2801 "2020-08-22T21:11:49Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Human rights make sense all the time or they’re nothing. You think their right to be recognized as women is subject to your personal convenience. Which means you don’t really believe they have any human rights at all. @monstro is patiently waiting for an answer about all the other 50 or more gender identities people claim. Is it a human right violation not to legally affirm those? It seems rather arbitrary that out of all the genders, it’s only the male and female one that society is being asked to accommodate. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2802 "2020-08-22T21:36:52Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Human rights make sense all the time or they’re nothing. You think their right to be recognized as women is subject to your personal convenience. Which means you don’t really believe they have any human rights at all. Don’t be daft. Not being recognised as a woman under all possible circumstances is a million miles away from having no human rights at all. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2803 "2020-08-22T21:37:12Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > There are a few specific posters in this thread (who tend to dominate the conversation here) who have an ideology where we are considered deceptive and dangerous and constantly misgender us and it’s all perfectly acceptable per this board’s rules Name names, please. Name the posters who have said transwomen as a class are deceptive and dangerous, rather than specific males and specific kinds of males (male perverts). Just about every poster in this thread has cosigned the belief that men are dangerous to transwomen. The notion that transwomen can’t even take a piss around men without fearing for their lives is accepted without question. Without a single raised eyebrow. Without a single request for a cite. But what I’m hearing from you and others is that it is hateful and bigoted for me to believe that males are dangerous to females. Apparently women who dare express their concern about granting males unrestricted access in their spaces are hysterical, delusional, paranoid horrible people who should be silenced, no matter how much evidence they provide to support their position. But transwomen who are afraid of men? They deserve unconditional sympathy and validation. They are entitled to safety. They are entitled to affirmation. They are entitled to whatever they want, without question, without scrutiny, without having to prove a damn thing. If me talking about the nonsense that is gender theory and me calling out the double standards in this debate make me a TERF, then I’m a TERF. But I don’t hate anyone. I’m not trying to silence anyone. I know I’m sufficiently progressive. I just don’t have to prove it by reciting mindless slogans. If people seriously think gender-affirming restrooms are an entitlement, then we need to remove whatever statue or regulation enumerates this right. Because it is a crazy bananas to think that everyone is entitled to a toilet that reminds them of their “girliness” or “manliness” or “androgynousness”. Let’s just have unisex restrooms if ciswomen are hysterical nutjobs for not wanting to pee next to penis-havers. Let’s dismantle all sex-segregated spaces. Maybe if we do this, TERFs won’t have ammunition to use against the gender ideologues anymore. But on the other hand, maybe if we do this, everyone can learn to be satisfied with having their gender affirmed through friends and family rather than through plumbing fixtures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=139) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=141)