# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2824 "2020-08-22T22:39:18Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Difficult to say for sure, because I’ve only got brief written descriptions to go on. I’d have to make that decision with more information, and on a case by case basis. But just because it may be hard to draw a crystal clear line, that doesn’t mean we have to accept that anyone who says they’re a woman actually is one. I’ve known trans-women who’ve gone through full gender reassignment surgery and have utterly committed to their new lives, but I’ve also known men who changed their names from Mark to Mary and then did _absolutely nothing else_ (including shave). It’s clear that the latter sort of person shouldn’t be sent to a women’s prison. …so that’s a “no” then? ---
**Author:** ![Danny\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Danny\_Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danny_Hammer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2825 "2020-08-22T22:43:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so that’s a “no” then? I’m withholding judgement until I have more information, which isn’t really a yes _or_ no. But if a poster said “I’m trans, and though I don’t dress or act as a woman, and I’ve no intention of having surgery, I demand you affirm my identity as a woman”, then I’d say “Nope. You’re a man.” Does that help? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2826 "2020-08-22T22:56:03Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Does that help? …yep. It’s clear that you are fully prepared to **interrogate** fellow posters here on **intimate details of their lives** and that you are prepared to misgender them if they fail to pass “your test.” You are the ultimate arbiter of identity. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2827 "2020-08-22T22:57:30Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Their minds are made up and we are all deceptive perverts to them, so why bother. You see it from all the insane conspiracy theories they post about us. They can hate us all they want, I don’t care, but I’m not going to be a target for their hate. The argument is not that transwomen are perverts. It’s that nothing is stopping perverts from identifying as trans. Can you to appreciate this distinction on your part? If I were a transwoman, I’d be the first one distancing myself from Anthony Scales. The fact that people like him can easily exploit self-identification has troubling implications to the transgender community, just as it has implications to the safety of women and children. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2828 "2020-08-22T22:58:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > nope. They are not campaigning on allowing sexual predators access to women’s prisons. That is certainly not a thing that they are doing. They are campaigning to allow people to change their legal gender by statutory declaration. This will allow male sexual predators much easier access to women’s prisons. And they support imprisoning trans prisoners according to the gender they are living in, even in the absence of a legal sex change. This is the policy that led to the Karen White case. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You don’t support helping children feel better about themselves? I support doing what is in children’s long term best interests, not what makes them happy in the short term. ---
**Author:** ![Danny\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Danny\_Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danny_Hammer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2829 "2020-08-22T22:58:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …yep. > > It’s clear that you are fully prepared to **interrogate** fellow posters here on **intimate details of their lives** and that you are prepared to misgender them if they fail to pass “your test.” You are the ultimate arbiter of identity Am I to infer from this that you believe that anyone who says they _are_ a woman should be treated as one in all particulars, _regardless_ of how they present? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2830 "2020-08-22T23:03:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They are campaigning to allow people to change their legal gender by statutory declaration. …good for them! > [@DemonTree](#): > > This will allow male sexual predators much easier access to women’s prisons. **Everybody** agrees that male sexual predators should not have access to women’s prisons. > [@DemonTree](#): > > This is the policy that led to the Karen White case. We’ve been over this in this thread. This was not the policy that lead to Karen White. **Nobody** supports what happened with Karen White. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I support doing what is in children’s long term best interests, not what makes them happy in the short term. So you support what Mermaids and what Stonewall do then. Fantastic!!! ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2831 "2020-08-22T23:06:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s clear that you are fully prepared to **interrogate** fellow posters here on **intimate details of their lives** and that you are prepared to misgender them if they fail to pass “your test.” You are the ultimate arbiter of identity. More bearshit. He said he’d make a judgement based on information the hypothetical poster volunteered, or suspend judgement, not interrogate anyone. He’s entitled to form an opinion as to another person’s sincerity. @iiandyiiii felt entitled to an opinion on transwoman Anthony Scale’s sincerity, why don’t you go harangue him? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2832 "2020-08-22T23:08:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So you support what Mermaids and what Stonewall do then. Fantastic!!! They are supporting experimental treatment on children that is driven by ideology, not science. They are harming children. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2833 "2020-08-22T23:11:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > **Everybody** agrees that male sexual predators should not have access to women’s prisons. Yeah, but _some_ people here think trans women’s ‘right’ to affirmation is ever so much more important than women’s safety. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2834 "2020-08-22T23:20:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > More bearshit. He said he’d make a judgement based on information the hypothetical poster volunteered, or suspend judgement, not interrogate anyone. He’s entitled to form an opinion as to another person’s sincerity. …except I wasn’t talking about “hypothetical people.” This isn’t a hypothetical discussion. > [@DemonTree](#): > > @iiandyiiii felt entitled to an opinion on transwoman Anthony Scale’s sincerity, why don’t you go harangue him? YWTF feels entitled to opine on what is going on in every male posters head. Why don’t you go harangue her? > [@DemonTree](#): > > They are supporting experimental treatment on children that is driven by ideology, not science. They are harming children. They are not harming children. Don’t be ridiculous. The “treatments” aren’t “experimental.” And everything is guided by the science. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Yeah, but _some_ people here think trans women’s ‘right’ to affirmation is ever so much more important than women’s safety. This isn’t a binary debate. The right to affirmation doesn’t explicitly harm women’s safety. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2835 "2020-08-22T23:23:15Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Am I to infer from this that you believe that anyone who says they _are_ a woman should be treated as one in all particulars, _regardless_ of how they present? …you are entitled to infer whatever the fuck you like. That wouldn’t necessarily mean your inference is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Danny\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Danny\_Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danny_Hammer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2836 "2020-08-22T23:31:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > you are entitled to infer whatever the fuck you like. That wouldn’t necessarily mean your inference is correct. ::Sigh:: Fine. We’ll do this the long way. I’ll state what I think your position is. You’ll accuse me of strawmanning or misrepresentation or whatever without bothering to say _how_ I’m doing so. Then we’ll go back and forward until I get it right or one of us dies of boredom. Is that how you want to play it? Okay. It’s my belief that you oppose anything which even smells like ‘gatekeeping’. If a person _says_ they’re a woman, that’s good enough for you and anyone who doesn’t treat that person as a woman in every respect is a TERF and a bigot. Which brings me back to my original question, which you still haven’t answered: If a man is convicted of a violent crime and tells the judge that he’s a woman so he can serve his sentence in a safer prison, should the judge send him to a women’s prison? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2837 "2020-08-22T23:33:36Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Is that how you want to play it? …that works for me!!! ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2838 "2020-08-23T00:04:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > YWTF feels entitled to opine on what is going on in every male posters head. Why don’t you go harangue her? What are you going on about? I did no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2839 "2020-08-23T00:05:04Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > What are you going on about? I did no such thing. …what are you going on about? Of course you did. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2840 "2020-08-23T00:17:46Z")
If you can find a post where I opined about every male poster in this thread, I’m dying to see that shit. Because that would include everyone from @RickJay, @Dr.Strangelove, @Biffster, @filmore, you, @Trinopus, and @iiandyiiii. Plus more. Even if I’m guilty of this “crime”, it’s hilarious that you’re acting like it even is a crime. Omg, someone in IMHO is expressing opinions about people! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2841 "2020-08-23T00:29:26Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > f you can find a post where I opined about every male poster in this thread, I’m dying to see that shit. Because that would include everyone from @RickJay, @Dr.Strangelove, @Biffster, @filmore, you, @Trinopus, and @iiandyiiii. Plus more. …ah okay. #notallmen. Gotcha. Just the ones you disagree with. Okay. > [@YWTF](#): > > Even if I’m guilty of this “crime”, it’s hilarious that you’re acting like it even is a crime. Omg, someone in IMHO is expressing opinions about people! Except I haven’t accused you of “a crime.” Nothing of the sort. This is utterly ridiculous hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2842 "2020-08-23T00:40:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …ah okay. #notallmen. Gotcha. Just the ones you disagree with. Okay Still not seeing any evidence to substantiate even this claim, though. Just thing #3,403 we gotta take on faith. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2843 "2020-08-23T01:43:10Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > What are you going on about? I did no such thing. May I direct your attention to this pile of insulting, pseudo-scientific bullshit? > [@YWTF](#): > > I read a viewpoint yesterday from a man that really made me think. > > He said that many men are emotionally invested in equating transwomen with women because of how they’ve been socialized to see masculinity. The idea goes something like this: > > Manhood is seen as an accomplishment. You aren’t just a man: there is a concept of “being a man” that is synonymous with being strong, competent, emotionally resilient…all the traits that are prized in our patriarchal culture. > > On the journey to “being a man”, there are penalties for being feminine. Physical and emotional weakness and vulnerability, interest in “girly” things, and other nonconformity yields bullying, harassment, and shame. By the time the average man has made his way to maturity, he will have suppressed these traits or even erased them completely in himself. In their place are codes of masculinized conduct. > > Enter transwomen. These are males who also were punished for feminine traits, but unlike other males, they were unsuccessful in learning to conform to masculinity. But they are just like those other males in one important way: _they both internalize the message that it is aberrant and wrong for men to be feminine_ . > > Men handle this message by suppressing femininity while transwomen handle this message by opting into womanhood. Because they both believe that men cannot be feminine, they share a common understanding of themselves and _each other_ . They see each other in shades of black and white rather than gray. > > They both object to the notion that transwomen aren’t women. It means changing their whole concept of what it means to be a man. When a man comes out of the psychological toil that is youth and claims adult manhood, he wants that to be an accomplishment. He wants that toil to have been worth something. So he uses TWAW to feel more secure about his own masculinity. > > I don’t know if I believe this theory 100% but it does make a certain amount of sense. Where it is weak is in explaining why conservative men wouldn’t be just as likely if not more likely to think like this than liberal men. Yes, yes, you didn’t mean “all men.” Just all the men who dared to stand up to you and advocate for the rights of trans women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=143)