# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2844 "2020-08-23T01:54:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, yes, you didn’t mean “all men.” Just all the men who dared to stand up to you and advocate for the rights of trans women. But that isn’t the claim made in that quote. “Many men” isn’t equivalent to “everyone arguing with me.” ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2845 "2020-08-23T01:55:36Z")
In addition to what @RickJay said, a careful reading of that post would show that this wasn’t even my opinion; it was someone else’s theory. I prefaced the whole thing with this statement: > I read a viewpoint yesterday from a man that really made me think. > > He said that many men are emotionally invested in equating transwomen with women because of how they’ve been socialized to see masculinity. The idea goes something like this: As I said at the very end, I don’t believe this to be true 100%. It doesn’t strike me as crazy since it is consistent with toxic masculinity, but it probably is guilty of oversimplification. It is fascinating that you wasted your time pulling that up. Not as fascinating as that Peeping Tom in the shithole story that @filmore shared, but not too far behind. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2846 "2020-08-23T02:07:47Z")
You said something shitty and insulting about people who disagree with you about trans rights. Don’t try to hide behind, “It was just someone else’s theory!” At least own the toxic ideas you’re injecting into this thread. Also, apparently me remembering something you wrote last night and being able to find it with “ctrl-f” is grounds for comparing me to an actual sexual predator. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2847 "2020-08-23T03:07:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You said something shitty and insulting about people who disagree with you about trans rights. Don’t try to hide behind, “It was just someone else’s theory!” At least own the toxic ideas you’re injecting into this thread. It is frankly bizarre you’re taking offense at any of it. If it’s untrue, there is no reason it should be hitting such a nerve. Men who are secure in their masculinity are comfortable being feminine and masculine, and they accept the existence of men who are feminine. They have not internalized the idea that men are limited to certain way of being. For all I know, you could be one of these men,They were not the subject of the theory I presented; only males trained to believe in a rigid concept of manhood were. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2848 "2020-08-23T03:22:35Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Still not seeing any evidence to substantiate even this claim, though. …Miller has provided the cite. A “pile of insulting, pseudo-scientific bullshit” is an accurate paraphrase, in my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2849 "2020-08-23T03:29:25Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It is frankly bizarre you’re taking offense at any of it. If it’s untrue, there is no reason it should be hitting such a nerve. Needless to say, something does not have to be true to be insulting. Insert, as evidence, any number of racist, sexist, or homophobic sentiments here that are entirely untrue, and would get you banned from this board in a hot minute if they were proposed in earnest. Men do not support trans rights because of toxic masculinity. Literally nobody, anywhere, supports trans rights, but is grossed out by effeminate men. This is not a thing that happens, ever. This is an incredibly lazy attempt to portray feminist-based support for trans rights as a form of sexism. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2850 "2020-08-23T03:32:41Z")
I think calling transpeople “delusional” would qualify as hate IMO, à la RickJay > [@RickJay](#): > > If you are male, but think yourself female, that is delusional. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2851 "2020-08-23T03:34:56Z")
@Miller > Men do not support trans rights because of toxic masculinity. Literally nobody, anywhere, supports trans rights, but is grossed out by effeminate men This is blatantly incorrect. > **[Thousands of gay people are being forced to undergo gender reassignment...](https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun/)** > > Iran has been accused of forcing hordes of gay people to have gender reassignment surgery in an attempt to rid the country of homosexuality. How many people will read this headline, agree with me that this is a travesty, but still continue to assert that transwomen are women? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2852 "2020-08-23T03:41:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > How many people will read this headline, agree with me that this is a travesty, but still continue to assert that transwomen are women? …holy fucking shit. Is this a serious post? At least people are starting to really show their true colours now. After nearly 3000 posts its about time that people started to just say what they really mean. Yes. This is a travesty. Yes. Transwomen are women. Yes. Miller is correct. No. These outrageous violations of human rights do not support the “pile of insulting, pseudo-scientific bullshit” that was posted earlier in this thread. No. The people doing this are not supporters of trans rights. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2853 "2020-08-23T03:42:26Z")
> **[The Unspoken Homophobia Propelling the Transgender Movement in Children](https://quillette.com/2018/10/23/the-unspoken-homophobia-propelling-the-transgender-movement-in-children/)** > > Nowadays, every left-leaning parent and educator seems content to take a child’s word at face value if they say they were born in the wrong body, not realizing that by doing so, an important conversation is being brushed aside. > [A study](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330) published last month on ROGD—one that gained widespread media attention for [infuriating transgender activists](https://quillette.com/2018/08/31/as-a-former-dean-of-harvard-medical-school-i-question-browns-failure-to-defend-lisa-littman/)—found that a large proportion of these girls had come out as lesbian or bisexual prior to coming out as transgender. > > Why would this be the case? Along with the physical and emotional discomfort that is typical of undergoing puberty, it has become more socially acceptable to be a transgender man than a gay woman. The study’s findings also showed that transitioning increased students’ popularity among their peers and offered greater protection from harassment, because teachers were more concerned about anti-trans bullying than bullying that was anti-gay. > > As children grow up, parents will undoubtedly notice if their son is effeminate. For those who are troubled at the thought of having a girly son, transitioning offers a promising solution—by allowing a child to transition, a feminine boy now presents as a feminine girl. A little boy who enjoys indulging in make-up and other female-typical activities will bring about much less attention and criticism if he were a girl. > > This same logic extends to a child’s future sexual orientation. On some level, these parents likely know that there is a chance their feminine son will grow up to be sexually attracted to men. Instead of allowing this to happen, they may be more than happy to go along with facilitating their child’s requests to transition to the opposite sex, so that to the outside world, that child will appear heterosexual—an adolescent boy who is attracted to other boys will appear to be straight if he transitions to female. What’s most disturbing is that these parents will be lauded as open-minded and “on the right side of history,” when in actuality, they are homophobic. In some cases, a child may internalize their families’ anti-gay sentiments, which adds to their desire to transition. > > Saying any of these things aloud will get a person branded as transphobic, and I understand why some transgender activists and their allies find this information so threatening; it could potentially be used as evidence that transgender people don’t really exist, or they should be forced to not feel the way that they do. One meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that transitioning [can indeed be beneficial](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x/abstract) for some adults, but in the event that a child can grow to be comfortable in the body they were given, it shouldn’t be controversial to contend that this would be a better outcome than a lifetime of hormones and possible surgery and sterility. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2854 "2020-08-23T03:45:28Z")
…and now we are back to quoting from the alt-right anti-immigration anti-feminist Islamophobic and anti-transgender Quillette. Brilliant. > **[Quillette](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette)** > > Quillette is a far-right "academic"\[note 1\] online magazine that tries to present itself as centrist and libertarian, when in reality it serves to legitimize and propagate many views shared by the alt-right. For example, Quillette regularly publishes... ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2855 "2020-08-23T03:55:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yes. Transwomen are women. Technically, by the dictionary, no, transwomen are not women. The definition of woman is “an adult female”: > **[Definition of WOMAN](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman)** > > an adult female person; a woman belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combination; womankind… See the full definition And female is “typically has the capacity to bear young”: > **[Definition of FEMALE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female)** > > of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs; having or producing only pistils or pistillate flowers; having a gender identity that is the opposite of male… See the full definition The legal system and society is changing, but these definitions are what the words generally mean in society. A trans woman does not fit into those categories. These conflicts we are having here are because these well-established definitions and understandings are at odds with stating TWAW as if it was an absolute. That doesn’t mean that a trans woman can’t be treated as a woman and live like a woman, but stating TWAW is not something that is clearly evident or in line what what the word and concept of “woman” currently means. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2856 "2020-08-23T03:55:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Men do not support trans rights because of toxic masculinity. Straw man. The theory is that certain men are emotionally invested in equating feminine males to women. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2857 "2020-08-23T03:56:58Z")
And you keep repeating a mindless, nonsensical, bullshit, harmful slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2858 "2020-08-23T04:02:57Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Technically, by the dictionary, no, transwomen are not women. The definition of woman is “an adult female”: …technically, by Merriam-Webster (which you cited) > **[Definition of TRANS WOMAN](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trans%20woman)** > > a transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth… See the full definition > [@Merriam Webster](#): > > a transgender woman **:**** a woman** who was identified as male at birth So that’s settled then. The **dictionary has spoken**. Transgender women are women. Thanks for the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2859 "2020-08-23T04:04:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And you keep repeating a mindless, nonsensical, bullshit, harmful slogan. …the dictionary apparently agrees with me. As per @filmore [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trans%20woman](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trans%20woman) So not mindless, nonsensical, bullshit, and definitely not harmful at all. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2860 "2020-08-23T04:05:15Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Just people saying that if you’re going to call yourself a woman you should at least shave off your massive beard, lest people question your sincerity. I guess the Bearded Lady lost the right for her lady card and is now out of a job! Doesn’t seem fair to her. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2861 "2020-08-23T04:08:21Z")
Could someone like RickJay explain to me if the only thing that matters when calling a person a man or a women is biology, how are women who feel uncomfortable, fearful or angry at a supposed man using the women’s locker room going to have the ability to get such a man kicked out from there? For all they know, that person could (and and sometimes would HAVE to be, due to possible bathroom bills and such) a transman (or just a very masculine ciswoman). Such a transman _would not have had to undergone any hormone treatment or surgery_, could have a naturally flat chest etc, but still be “passable”. If biology, as in “typical XY phenotype” (whatever that is), is the necessary and sufficient condition to be considered to be a member of a gender, the notion of “passing” becomes completely meaningless without intimate access to said persons complete physiological makeup. So there is something more to being a man or a women then purely biology, especially for intersex individuals. Simply having a big “M” or “F” on your birth certificate does not seem to be enough, unless someone wants to make the dubious case where gender presentation is the same thing as biological gender. “Passing gender” is not synonymous with “birth gender”. There is nothing fundamentally biological to looking and behaving like and a man or a women, those are socially determined. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2862 "2020-08-23T04:15:54Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Straw man. The theory is that certain men are emotionally invested in equating feminine males to women Your words: > [@](#): > > As I said at the very end, I don’t believe this to be true 100%. It doesn’t strike me as crazy since it is consistent with toxic masculinity, but it probably is guilty of oversimplification. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2863 "2020-08-23T04:17:00Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > I think calling transpeople “delusional” would qualify as hate IMO, à la RickJay He’s saying if someone is X but thinks they are Y then they have the wrong idea about themselves. This is tautological, not hateful. A male by definition is not female. The grasping at straws is obnoxious. Can we save the word hateful for stuff like name-calling and personal insults? I’ve lost track of how many times someone has likened me to a white supremacist in this thread, and I don’t care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=144)