# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 147
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2924 "2020-08-24T11:24:15Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > So how does one prevent future Karen Whites from obtaining GRC’s so that they have unfettered access to women’s locker rooms, rape shelters, and dorm rooms? …there has been only one Karen White. Karen White didn’t have a GRC. Womens locker rooms, rape shelter and dorm rooms should’t have to accept violent sexual predators **whether or not they have a GRC**. The problem isn’t transgender people: the problem is **violent sexual offenders**. > [@YWTF](#): > > Believe it or not, this is what we’ve been talking about for the bulk of this thread: male predators exploiting self-identification. What **you** have been talking about is discrimination against transgender people. And calling for psychological assessments for predatory red flags for transgender people is blatant and obvious transphobia. Don’t hide behind the “I’m protecting women” canyard. You’ve done that enough in this thread. This isn’t about protecting women. This is transphobia in action. > [@YWTF](#): > > If you’re not interested in even this level of gatekeeping, then it doesn’t appear that you are really in favor of gatekeeping. Oh no. I’m not really in favour of gatekeeping. Oh dear. Oh my. What am I going to do? > [@YWTF](#): > > You’re okay with putting Karen White in women’s prisons, but taking her out if women end up getting violated. Bullshit. What part of “Karen White should never have been put in the position where she could have harmed women prisoners” did you fail to understand? > [@YWTF](#): > > Actually _preventing_ that violation with upfront screening doesn’t seem like something you want to do, and that constitutes a gaping problem. There are other ways to prevent that violation **without treating every single transgender person applying for a GRC as a potential pervert.** Sexual assault in prison is a [problem](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/737991/sexual-assaults-reported-prisons-exploratory-findings.pdf) that isn’t going to be solved by discriminating against a class of people. It its actually a thing you are really worried about then I think it would be fantastic if you were to be come an advocate for a better prison system. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2925 "2020-08-24T11:47:21Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Believe it or not, this is what we’ve been talking about for the bulk of this thread: male predators exploiting self-identification. We’ve also been talking about how you and a few other posters don’t think transwomen are real women. This isn’t a gotcha or an unrelated idea, it forms the core of why you subjugate their rights for the rights of “real women”. This is why when you say “we have to protect women from male predators” that you’ll send a transwoman, who lives as a woman, dresses as a woman, acts as a woman, and identifies as a women into the men’s bathroom, men’s locker room, and men’s prison, without a care in the world about her well being. You place the burden of male predators on transwomen, because deep down, you don’t value their concerns. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2926 "2020-08-24T11:59:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > We’ve also been talking about how you and a few other posters don’t think transwomen are real women. This isn’t a gotcha or an unrelated idea, it forms the core of why you subjugate their rights for the rights of “real women”. Do you think Karen White is a real woman? It’s trivially easy to berate me for not mindlessly bleating rhetoric like TWAW, but let me see you commit to that position with specific people. Whether someone is a “real woman” or not doesn’t mean I want to see them without rights. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2927 "2020-08-24T12:52:14Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Do you think Karen White is a real woman? Do you think Karen White is pretending to be a woman in order to get transferred to a women’s prison? Do you think Karen White lived for 3 years as a woman prior to being sent back to prison for assault as some sort of long con? Karen White is a terrible person, deserves to be in prison, and deserves to be segregated from gen pop to keep other prisoners safe. Karen White is also a woman. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2928 "2020-08-24T12:55:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What part of “Karen White should never have been put in the position where she could have harmed women prisoners” did you fail to understand? Okay, you don’t want Karen White to be able to harm female prisoners. A good start, though you don’t say how she should safely serve her sentence - in isolation in a women’s jail? With other dangerous offenders in a men’s jail? Should she be able to get a GRC? If and when she gets out of jail, should she be housed in a women’s hostel? Is it okay if she uses the women’s changing room at the local pool? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2929 "2020-08-24T12:55:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “Experts in a field” can be just as corrupt, profit-driven, ideologicaly-driven, and sociopathic as anyone else. “Experts in a field” have led all kinds of horrific abuses throughout history, _[especially](https://www.theatlantic.com/sponsored/netflix-2017/how-victorian-women-were-oppressed-through-the-use-of-psychiatry/1607/) [when](https://www.livescience.com/sexist-medical-ideas-about-women.html) it [comes](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5418952/) to [women’s health](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opinion-dusenbery-medical-sexism-research_n_5a9e01c4e4b0a0ba4ad72a3c)_ . …lets get specific here. The cite provided earlier thread was to a website called “Gender Health Query.” At first glance the website looked professional, well organised, it looked like a fact-based medical site. Which is by design. A few minutes of googling reveal that Gender Health Query is an advocacy group. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it is an advocacy group, which means it is entirely fair to examine the information they put out with a critical eye, especially when that cite is being used as evidence against another advocacy group. > [@monstro](#): > > But we have posted what the concerns of some experts in the field in this thread. But you won’t read them because you object to the sources. I do read many of them. I won’t read anything from Quillette because thats an outlet that [publishes articles that put journalists lives in danger](https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php). But I do often try to read things that I disagree with. > [@monstro](#): > > You only seem to want to listen to experts that echo your slogans. I actually do very little “listening to the experts.” I listen a lot to marginalised communities. To transgender voices. In 2014 I was asked to volunteer my time to take photographs for a book about takatāpui, and I sat in with an interview with a “group of old girls” who were friends and associates of Carmen Rupe to talk about their stories and their lives. And I won’t share those stories here because they are not my stories to tell, but in between the laughter and the mirth there were tales of sadistic cruelty that broke my heart. I left that interview with my eyes opened to a world of heartache that I didn’t know existed. I had to take a good hard look at myself and reflect on my actions. “Trans women are women” isn’t an empty slogan. It isn’t the “mantra of experts” that I’ve adopted. I don’t pretend to understand all the science behind it, nor do I consider the science that important. Its an expression of solidarity for a group that is shunned by larger society. Its the very least I can do. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2930 "2020-08-24T13:16:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Okay, you don’t want Karen White to be able to harm female prisoners. A good start, though you don’t say how she should safely serve her sentence - in isolation in a women’s jail? With other dangerous offenders in a men’s jail? > > Should she be able to get a GRC? If and when she gets out of jail, should she be housed in a women’s hostel? Is it okay if she uses the women’s changing room at the local pool? …do you think the way we treat transgender people in society should be defined by the actions of a single person? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2931 "2020-08-24T13:25:44Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Do you think Karen White is pretending to be a woman in order to get transferred to a women’s prison? > > Do you think Karen White lived for 3 years as a woman prior to being sent back to prison for assault as some sort of long con? I would never pretend to know what the fuck is going on in Karen White’s head. This person was depraved enough to rape a pregnant woman (not to mention stabbing someone else), so I’m going to assume the thoughts swirling inside Karen White’s head are wholly unrelated to any thoughts I’m capable of producing. We might as well be talking about a space alien. Because I don’t know what the fuck is going inside White’s head, there is no way for me to validate their gender identity. Calling Karen a woman purely because Karen says that Karen is a woman _will never ever make sense to me_. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2932 "2020-08-24T13:54:26Z")
I am curious if the folks how the folks who take TWAW as gospel feel about transvestic fetishism: > **[Transvestic fetishism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism)** > > Transvestic fetishism is a psychiatric diagnosis applied to men who are thought to have an excessive sexual or erotic interest in cross-dressing; this interest is often expressed in autoerotic behavior. It differs from cross-dressing for entertainment or other purposes that do not involve sexual arousal. Under the name transvestic disorder, it is categorized as a paraphilia in the DSM-5. > The DSM-5 states that late-onset gender dysphoria in adolescent and adult males is preceded by "transvestic b... > ## Description > > The [DSM-5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5) states that adolescent and adult males with late-onset [gender dysphoria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria) “frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement.”[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism#cite_note-DSM-5-2) “Habitual fetishistic tranvestism developing into [autogynephilia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogynephilia)” is given as a [risk factor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_factor) for gender dysphoria to develop. > > According to DSM-IV, this fetishism was limited to [heterosexual](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexual) men; however, the DSM-5 does not have this restriction, and opens it to women and men with this interest, regardless of their [sexual orientation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation).[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism#cite_note-3) It is, however, usually documented in males.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism#cite_note-Cowen-4) > > There are two key criteria before a psychiatric diagnosis of “transvestic fetishism” is made:[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism#cite_note-DSM-5) > > 1. Individuals must be sexually aroused by the act of cross-dressing. > 2. Individuals must experience significant distress or impairment – socially or occupationally – because of their behavior. I don’t want kinks to be equated with gender. Someone who gets off on play-acting as a woman should not be entitled to the special protections afforded to females. Society should not be obligated to treat these people any differently than we treat other people with kinks. Males who are into cross-dressing for fetishistic purposes should have the freedom to do so. But they don’t deserve any special gravitas for doing so. That’s what TWAW gives them. How many transwomen are autogynephilic? I don’t think anyone really knows for sure. But even if it’s just a small percentage, their existence makes TWAW a big time lie. If we want to reduce “woman” into a set of stereotyped behaviors, then we must acknowledge that a person who gets a boner every time they put on a skirt is not acting like a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2933 "2020-08-24T14:20:47Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > We might as well be talking about a space alien. Let’s agree to not bring up aliens in our discussion of real people, then, shall we? It’s not normal to set public policy based on the single most fucked up person you can find. And… I wouldn’t call Karen a women purely because Karen says that Karen is a woman. I would call her a women because she lived as a woman for years. She didn’t decide to be a woman because she got caught looking under stalls in the Ladies’ Room, or because she was looking for a comfier prison stay. She decided she wanted to live as a woman and kept it up for the long haul. Karen is a woman, a terrible person, a violent criminal and should be treated as all three. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2934 "2020-08-24T14:47:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > She decided she wanted to live as a woman and kept it up for the long haul. What exactly did she keep up for the “long haul”? Requesting female pronouns? Dressing a certain way? If she did not wear women’s clothing but she still identified as “woman” for three years, would you still consider that a “long haul” too? > **[Karen White: how 'manipulative' transgender inmate attacked again](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison)** > > Former neighbours describe 52-year-old as volatile and violent amid questions over placement in all-female prison > Bishop, who met White at a Transforum support group meeting in Manchester about five years ago, said: “When I met her she was at the beginning of her transition. But I felt that she was someone who didn’t listen to any advice. > > “She seemed like somebody who was very much going to plough her own furrow regardless of the community advice, and she was going to demand her rights. She insisted people referred to her in her acquired gender without trying terribly hard to present as a woman. I don’t know exactly what Jenny-Ann Bishop means by “without trying terribly hard to present as a woman”. But I think it is safe to assume that White wasn’t doing anything over the “long haul” except being a big source of aggravation to everyone–including other trans folks. I wonder if Jenny-Ann Bishop, a transwoman, would be called a TERF by folks here. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2935 "2020-08-24T16:01:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But it is an advocacy group, which means it is entirely fair to examine the information they put out with a critical eye, especially when that cite is being used as evidence against another advocacy group. Sure it is. But you haven’t examined it at all, you’re simply dismissing it based on the source. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you think the way we treat transgender people in society should be defined by the actions of a single person? I agree with @Novelty_Bobble. It’s the edge cases that are the difficult area where we don’t already have agreement. If you can’t answer those questions for Karen White then you haven’t answered them at all. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The difficult part, that I’m not sure you are willing to do, is to properly navigate the difficult area that lives between “in most cases” and “in all cases”. The arguments worth having are pretty much never in the areas of general agreement, they always live on the edge. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2936 "2020-08-24T16:07:36Z")
**Cheesesteak** > Let’s agree to not bring up aliens in our discussion of real people, then, shall we? It’s not normal to set public policy based on the single most fucked up person you can find. How about I get to call a savage rapist whatever I feel like calling? Karen White is a monster, so its a vast understatement to say we might as well be talking about a space alien. Take the finger wagging elsewhere. > And… I wouldn’t call Karen a women purely because Karen says that Karen is a woman. I would call her a women because she lived as a woman for years. What does that even mean? White transitioned while in prison. “Living as a woman” while in jail means what? Putting on a wig and some fake breasts? Demanding “she” pronouns? Giggling instead of chuckling? Walking with a hipsway? Watching soap operas in the rec room instead of sports? What is “living as a woman” and how is this materially different than living as a man who may or may not engage in female stereotypes? I don’t know if you’re religious or not, but I’m agnostic. I’m more than comfortable in saying I don’t know unknowable things. Gender identity is one of those unknowable things. For someone like Karen White, just why in the hell would I assign _any_ credibility to her claim of being a woman? It’s not just intentional deception that is a concern; the potential for misclassifying feelings is another possibility that can’t be excluded. I would no more trust Karen White to know what a woman feels like than I would trust [any of these monsters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_rapists). > She didn’t decide to be a woman because she got caught looking under stalls in the Ladies’ Room, or because she was looking for a comfier prison stay. She decided she wanted to live as a woman and kept it up for the long haul. Karen is a woman, a terrible person, a violent criminal and should be treated as all three. You are assuming you know what White’s intentions are, but you have no way of knowing whether any of this is true. And honestly, it is making me _extremely_ uncomfortable watching you talk like an expert on this person’s thought process. The court found White to be highly manipulative. White’s victims were so badly traumatized that both were left suicidal; one may have been left infertile. Dishonesty was what got White placed in women’s prison to begin with. But the idea that White “lived as a woman” for some time in prison makes this person an actual woman to you. Right. If your posts are any indication, progressives are matching down a dangerous and unforgivable path of self-deception. I’m hoping Biden will never go on record saying the stuff you’re saying, because my conscience will not allow me to vote for him if he does. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2937 "2020-08-24T16:14:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > accusing people of lying (outside of the pit) is probably against the rules here in IMHO and even if it isn’t its pretty fucking rude. > [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > You’ve been pretty fucking rude to several posters in this thread, myself included. What goes around comes around. Accusations of lying are prohibited in Great Debates. The rule does not apply to other forums. That said, a general rule around most of the SDMB is attack the post, not the poster. Do not attack another user outside of the Pit. You both need to dial it back quite a bit. If you think someone is behaving rudely, report the post. Do not bicker in threads, and “what goes around comes around” is not a good strategy outside of the Pit as it can easily result in warnings on both sides. No warnings issued. Note to all - I realize that this is a hot button topic for many, but please keep your emotions in check when posting. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2938 "2020-08-24T16:26:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wonder if Jenny-Ann Bishop, a transwoman, would be called a TERF by folks here. What is baffling to me is the reluctance for people to just say “I don’t know.” No one knows whether Karen White is truly trans or is just delusional and/or lying. Not knowing is perfectly okay. Even if you believe transwomen are women, there is nothing wrong with saying cases like Karen White’s are inconclusive. But nope. It’s dogma all the way down. Doubt and uncertainty are seen threats. Atheists experience this growing up in religious households. We know what this looks like. We know how it ends. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2939 "2020-08-24T16:28:06Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > What does that even mean? White transitioned while in prison. “Living as a woman” while in jail means what? Putting on a wig and some fake breasts? Demanding “she” pronouns? Giggling instead of chuckling? Walking with a hipsway? Watching soap operas in the rec room instead of sports? What is “living as a woman” and how is this materially different than living as a man who may or may not engage in female stereotypes? Waht it means is this, per the link monstro gave us: > Before entering the prison system White was living in a social housing complex in the village of Mytholmroyd, West Yorkshire. Previously known as David Thompson, within a fortnight of moving in she had asked to be known as Karen White. > > Residents said over a three-year period she presided over a reign of terror, physically and verbally abusing others, with some residents having to move away. All wanted to remain anonymous, for fear of reprisals. > > One of the residents said White was initially “charming” but over time she became “incredibly aggressive” and residents feared for their safety. She said White was controlling and threatened to report many for hate crimes. > > “We did not have a problem with her being transgender. We already had another transgender woman living here and we all got on just fine,” the woman said. “She was always calling the police accusing us of hate crimes against her. And then she started getting violent – it was a terrifying time for all of us – we wish she had never been placed here.” > > The final straw came when White repeatedly stabbed an elderly male resident in his own home, claiming the pensioner had sexually assaulted her. The man said: “She just went for me – it was completely out of the blue. I still feel scared in my own home.” Her former neighbors, from a place that isn’t a men’s prison, call Karen White “her” and “she”. They identify her as transgender. What this means is that, for 3 years, she identified as a woman, as a transwoman, to the people who interacted with her, consistently and continually for that period of time. Yes, she was a giant asshole, a horrible person, a monster, but she consistently identified herself as a woman while being those terrible things. I’m not trusting what Karen White says, I’m trusting what she is reported to have done, her actions. And none of it is the insulting bullshit from your post. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2940 "2020-08-24T16:32:37Z")
So because White demanded people call her “she”—or else earn the wrath of an irrationally violent person—that makes her a woman to you. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2941 "2020-08-24T16:44:19Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > So because White demanded people call her “she”—or else earn the wrath of an irrationally violent person—that makes her a woman to you. Well, she’s not exactly the poster child for successful gender transition. But she did exhibit a consistency of action that leads me to believe this whole thing is not just a sham attempt to avoid men’s prison. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2942 "2020-08-24T16:45:32Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > But nope. It’s dogma all the way down. Doubt and uncertainty are seen threats. Atheists experience this growing up in religious households. We know what this looks like. We know how it ends. Do you have any doubt or uncertainty that trans women are not women and trans men are not men? Trans women and men experience this growing up in households. They know what this looks like. They know how it ends. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2943 "2020-08-24T17:04:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Her former neighbors, from a place that isn’t a men’s prison, call Karen White “her” and “she”. They identify her as transgender. What this means is that, for 3 years, she identified as a woman, as a transwoman, to the people who interacted with her, consistently and continually for that period of time. Yes, she was a giant asshole, a horrible person, a monster, but she consistently identified herself as a woman while being those terrible things. No one is disputing that White gets to be called transwoman. She meets the very basic qualifications for that designation, seeing as how she is a male who has uttered the words “I am a woman”. If transwomen have deemed her eligible for the “transwomen” designation based on such reasoning, then that’s their call to make. They are the owners of that label, after all. And it’s no skin off anyone’s nose to call her a “her”. It’s just a basic courtesy. None of this should this obligate society to treat her as female, though. Why should I, a woman, have to see this person as a member of _my_ tribe? It’s great that the trans community supports White (though it is unclear to me that they actually do). By why should ciswomen see her as a sister? And why should males be _forcing_ ciswomen to accept her? That to me is the fundamental question. Who should get to define the “woman” category? Adult females? Or males who wish to be seen as adult females and their very vocal, slogan-driven allies? The way I see it, we’ve got males telling ciswomen who a “woman” is, even though this category would not exist at all without ciswomen and even though it will be ciswomen who will be victimized by misclassifications. This isn’t progressive at all. It’s oppressive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=146) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=148)