# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2944 "2020-08-24T17:10:32Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Well, she’s not exactly the poster child for successful gender transition. But she did exhibit a consistency of action that leads me to believe this whole thing is not just a sham attempt to avoid men’s prison. But how do you know White identifies as a woman for a valid reason as opposed to a mistaken one? Is there such thing as a mistaken self-identity in your concept for how all of this works? White raped multiple women and sexually assaulted others. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that White’s impulsive desire to use and possess women’s bodies translates to a desire to actually _be_ a woman herself. If I were a betting person, that is what I would bet is the main driver. It just makes too much sense to ignore that possibility, and so I won’t. _A person who rapes women cannot be trusted to know what a woman feels like_. But maybe this is just me being crazy. Can you find _one_ report of an adult human female that has committed the combination of crimes Karen White has? I mean, if there was any reason to doubt she’s really a woman (beyond her totally shit credibility), it should be that. It is basically unheard of for women to inflict that kind of violence on other women, but it’s not unheard for men to do that. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2945 "2020-08-24T17:13:08Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Do you have any doubt or uncertainty that trans women are not women and trans men are not men? Trans women and men experience this growing up in households. They know what this looks like. They know how it ends. I don’t believe in gender, so I’m agnostic about anyone’s claim of truly being the opposite gender. I believe the most I can say is that transwomen are transwomen. Transmen are transmen. Burn me at the stake, right? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2946 "2020-08-24T17:24:34Z")
I’m not burning you at the stake. You can withhold the persecution complex for those moment when you’re actually being persecuted. Your implication that you are a beacon of open-mindedness while those who disagree with you are dogmatic authoritarians (or whatever “we know how it ends” is supposed to mean) is ridiculous. As is the implication that as an atheist you’re immune from that same behavior. If I were you I’d look at my own instinct to immediately jump to “burning me at the stake” as a response to my post as an indicator that maybe I myself was operating from a more dogmatic, close-minded and defensive position than I believed at first. And: > [@YWTF](#): > > the most I can say is that transwomen are transwomen. Transmen are transmen. 🙄 Why equivocate now? If I said “trans women are women” you would, I think, disagree (and have done so consistently already). Yet now you refuse to agree to the statement “trans women are not women”? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2947 "2020-08-24T17:29:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why should I, a woman, have to see this person as a member of _my_ tribe? Because that’s what decency is. Not about Karen White specifically, she’s just the shittiest version of a transgender person we’ve identified, but about transgender people in general. You treat them as a member of the group, a FULL member of the group because that’s what decency is. They don’t get the back of the bus, they don’t get some “civil union” version of rights because they’re not real enough people, they get real rights for real people, full rights. Courtesy can get stuffed. Men were all sorts of courteous to women while treating them like lesser beings. If their rights need to be restricted in some way, there should be a real reason for it. A problem that has been attacked with the idea of giving them full access to their rights, but is legitimately intractable. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2948 "2020-08-24T17:38:42Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Your implication that you are a beacon of open-mindedness while those who disagree with you are dogmatic authoritarians (or whatever “we know how it ends” is supposed to mean) is ridiculous. As is the implication that as an atheist you’re immune from that same behavior. I’m not calling myself of beacon of anything. I’m aghast at the reluctance I’m seeing to express doubt when asked about a specific transwoman. Dogma is the only reason someone would declare Karen White is a woman, when none of us even know this person _and_ there’s good reason to believe she’s a sociopathic liar. > [@Eonwe](#): > > Why equivocate now? If I said “trans women are women” you would, I think, disagree (and have done so consistently already). Yet now you refuse to agree to the statement “trans women are not women”? How is this equivocation? A male who identifies as a woman is, by definition, a transwoman. Karen White meets that definition, so there’s no faith required for me to say she’s a transwoman. “Transwoman are transwomen” is tautological. But saying transwomen are women is _ideological_. There is dogma behind that I don’t subscribe to. It is religion. If you can’t explain in a logical way why I’m wrong or inconsistent, then I’m confused what your point is. Are you willing to assert unequivocally that Karen White is a woman? If so, then you should be defending that position rather than…whatever it is you’re trying to argue right now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2949 "2020-08-24T17:48:59Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > _A person who rapes women cannot be trusted to know what a woman feels like_ Do you think cis-women don’t rape women? Or are they also “aliens” who don’t know what women “feel like”? ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2950 "2020-08-24T17:52:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m wondering what you think of this trade-off. And whether kids with no experience of what they’d be losing understand enough to make that decision? I’ve lost most of my sexual function and desire since being on HRT, and i’m totally fine with it. We are told the negatives as well as the positives of transitioning before agreeing to it so we can make an informed decision. Because for many transpeople, sex isn’t as important as living comfortably in our own bodies. By the age trans kids would be put on blockers, I think they would be able to agree to this. > [@YWTF](#): > > By linking your cause with Karen White’s, please understand that you are aligning yourself with a [violent rapist](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/male-rapist-transfer-womens-jail/) of the most vilest kind known to womankind. This will not help persuade the mainstream public that transwomen are actually women, and from a feminist standpoint, it only reinforces the perception that transwomen see things as a male misogynist does. There is no “cause” here other than to be treated equally. What she did and does is irrelevant to who she is. Once again, because we keep repeating ourselves to you: Karen White is a woman who, since she is a woman, should be housed in a women’s prison. But since she is such a monster, she needs to be kept away from other inmates for their own safety. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2951 "2020-08-24T17:58:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you think cis-women don’t rape women? Or are they also “aliens” who don’t know what women “feel like”? A woman who rapes is a woman because she has a female reproductive system. Her claim to womanhood doesn’t entirely hinge upon on having an honest and accurate mental concept of herself. That’s why sex and gender identity are world’s apart from one another. One is empirically determined and the one is a subjective claim that originates from the person it applies to. If Karen White is expecting me to take her word _for anything_, she’s a fool and so is anyone else who buys the bridges she’s selling. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2952 "2020-08-24T18:00:09Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > There is no “cause” here other than to be treated equally. She’s being treated just like other members of her birth sex. That’s perfectly fair and just. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2953 "2020-08-24T18:01:39Z")
Complete non-answer. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2954 "2020-08-24T18:06:05Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > She’s being treated just like other members of her birth sex. That’s perfectly fair and just. And that’s your problem, you say you “don’t believe in gender” so you seem to diminish and dehumanize people to just basic biology, when biology is only part of the equation when it comes to a person’s gender. I hope you realize what a fringe belief that is. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2955 "2020-08-24T18:19:47Z")
Right now, I’m just pointing out that your implication that those who disagree with you are dogmatic while you are not is unfounded. We’re all taking and exploring positions on social/institutional responses to people who present as different genders, which may or may not correspond to their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics. As to Karen White, I haven’t clicked on any of the links about her. It seems like a massive digression into something irrelevant. To me, the question of whether or not trans men/women are men/women and what that means has nothing at all to do with whether or not the implications of that position are easy to implement within current social systems. Should a trans woman who is a rapist be in gen pop with other women? Maybe/probably not? Should she be considered a real woman? I don’t know why the answer should be different for a rapist, an accountant, a parent, a millionaire, a college student, or anyone else. Will there be or are there people who will lie about it in order to achieve selfish goals? Probably. Is that a reason to say that trans women/men are not men/women? No. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2956 "2020-08-24T18:28:01Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > And that’s your problem, you say you “don’t believe in gender” so you seem to diminish and dehumanize people to just basic biology, when biology is only part of the equation when it comes to a person’s gender. I hope you realize what a fringe belief that is. The belief that a male rapist has the inalienable right to opt into the same population he preys upon is what is fringe. I’m not mincing words because you need to know what you are really defending. The last thing y’all really want is for the discussion we’re having to be tried in the court of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2957 "2020-08-24T18:30:51Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Should a trans woman who is a rapist be in gen pop with other women? Maybe/probably not? And, to be clear, I also think a cis-woman who rapes women (or a cis-man who rapes men) should probably not be in gen pop with their targets. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2958 "2020-08-24T18:34:03Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > The last thing y’all really want is for the discussion we’re having to be tried in the court of public opinion. So now we have descended into threats. Nice. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2959 "2020-08-24T18:36:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you think cis-women don’t rape women? Not in UK law; rape is specifically defined as non-consensual penetration with a penis. But even ignoring that, I think you’ll have a very hard time finding a cis-women whose rap sheet resembles Karen White’s. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2960 "2020-08-24T18:44:21Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Will there be or are there people who will lie about it in order to achieve selfish goals? Probably. Is that a reason to say that trans women/men are not men/women? No. Actually yes it is a valid reason to say that. If there is no way to confirm the truth behind someone’s identity, why act as though every claimed identity is known to be true? It’s disingenuous and most importantly, it cuts us off from critical thinking. Whether Karen White is a woman or not shouldn’t even be a question. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2961 "2020-08-24T18:54:55Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Should she be considered a real woman? I don’t know why the answer should be different for a rapist, an accountant, a parent, a millionaire, a college student, or anyone else. Unlike the others, the rapist has reason to lie. Which just might affect how much we trust their reports of their gender. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2962 "2020-08-24T19:02:43Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Because that’s what decency is. If I told you that I’m a Jew because I like bagels and saying words like “schlep”, would you berate an actual Jew for being offended by it? Would you call them “indecent” for not seeing me as a fellow Jew? Or would you defer to Jews on who gets to call themselves “Jew” and butt the fuck out of the conversation? Explain to me how it is indecent of me to perceive the “womanness” of males who have sex reassignment surgery and have lived as women for many years, but not see the “womanness” of males who have a cross-dressing fetish and have no interest in modifying their body in any way? Explain to me how it is indecent for me, an individual who has been female for over 40 years and has suffered the biological and social realities associated with this classification for the same period of time, to not see a male who has only identified as a woman for a couple of months as a sister, while still calling that person a transwoman and referring to them by their preferred pronouns? Why should you be push this person into my locker room and chastise me for being bothered by their presence? Why aren’t you pushing for the creation of third spaces for them, spaces where they don’t have to worry about people from your gender class harming them, so that people from my gender class don’t have to worry about being harmed by _them_? Help me to understand why gender affirmation is more important than women’s sense of security? Why should only one of these things be considered a fundamental right? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/2963 "2020-08-24T19:04:29Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Actually yes it is a valid reason to say that. If there is no way to confirm the truth behind someone’s identity, why act as though every claimed identity is known to be true? It’s disingenuous and most importantly, it cuts us off from critical thinking. There’s a gulf of difference between “people will lie about the truth” and “there is no way to confirm the truth”. I said nothing about the latter. And, I did not say that “every claimed identity is known to be true.” I’m not sure who or what you’re arguing against there. Maybe you’re implying that if it is conceivable that someone might lie, then we need a foolproof system to ensure 100% truthfulness for all people before we consider accepting anyone’s statement of gender as reflecting an honest report? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=149)