# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 158
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3144 "2020-08-26T16:57:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This bullshit rebuttal would have relevance _if_ I said ciswomen are _solely_ or even _largely_ responsible. I didn’t, and it doesn’t. A less bullshit response would been that you don’t know what is responsible for trans suicide, but it’s most likely multi-factorial. Pinning any responsibility on women who are concerned about the curtailment of their hard fought rights and protections only reinforces the concern that there is too much misogyny flavoring the trans moveme too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3145 "2020-08-26T17:02:56Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > A less bullshit response would been that you don’t know what is responsible for trans suicide I don’t know all the factors, nor do I claim to. But I do know TERFism is a factor in some transwomen’s suicidal ideation. Because they’ve told me so. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3146 "2020-08-26T17:20:45Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > @Boudicca90, I was wondering if you could share if you noticed any changes in how you felt about this kind of thing before and after you did hormone therapy. I don’t mean to say that you were aggressive or anything, but did you notice any changes in how much you noticed potential romantic partners? Is it the same as before or is it different now? I am far more calm and even-tempered now that I don’t have testosterone in my system, that is true. I was never aggressive toward other people, in fact I’ve always been kind of a pushover, but I was angry at myself a lot when I was male. And while I never shied away from my emotions before, I feel much more in tune with them and better able to express them. As far as relationships and potential romantic partners, I wouldn’t know. My discomfort with my body for so long made it so I was never comfortable in really engaging in relationships or sex until recently. While I had a male sex drive for such a big part of my life, I never really took advantage of it, so I don’t really miss it now, lol. And as far as transgender suicides, I’ve had a few attempts over the course of my life, and a big factor was feeling afraid to finally come out because of the negative stigma society (and yes, TERFs as well, since they have a big influence on anti-trans sentiment) put on us. Discrimination and hatred of us fuels a lot of our negative thoughts about ourselves, so @MrDribble is right about this. True, it’s not the only factor, but it is a big one. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3147 "2020-08-26T17:35:01Z")
I think it’s totally and completely and obviously true ,regardless of you saying it’s not. I’d probably feel that way even if you had a substantive response. It’s the exact same thing in both cases. All I’ve changed is the identification of the outgroup. More than that, it’s straight out of the right wing playbook. Search far and wide for isolated incidents where a member of the outgroup committed a crime, then use that incident to label the entire outgroup a safety risk. You know, prejudging an entire group based on the actions of a few members, which is the literal definition of prejudice. That’s why Trump’s going to win, you know. Because it’s easy to get people to be afraid. It’s easy to whip up irrational fear and use that as an excuse for limiting people’s rights. And this is just another day in the life of right wing propaganda. I’m so centrist that I’m barely liberal, but I have always refused to traffic in fear. That’s why I never sold alarm systems, even though it would’ve fit into my business model. I’m OK with lesbians using the same bathroom as me even though I was literally assaulted by a lesbian in a bathroom once. And I’ve been in public restroom with trans women many times and never had a problem. I had two incidents with men in the bathroom ( shower peepers) of my college dorm but they weren’t trans and that had nothing to do with trans policy. They didn’t actually assault me like the lesbian did, though. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3148 "2020-08-26T18:33:26Z")
The meta study I posted (over a month ago, holy crap) has a few studies on whether or not testosterone increases aggression in trans men (tl;dr little to none) [Gender-Affirming Hormone Use in Transgender Individuals: Impact on Behavioral Health and Cognition - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6354936/) I would also suggest that one reason trans women want to use the women’s room is also to avoid male predators. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3149 "2020-08-26T18:34:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Her point wasn’t about suicide or mortality rates. Her focus was always on crime statistics, maybe because we’ve been talking about harm, violence, and crime for the last umpity-ump posts. Yeah, I get that. I just found it interesting that she found a paper showing the huge amount of suffering endured by trans people, and used it as evidence for an argument that they should suffer more. > [@](#): > > What you are doing is red herring-ish. Suicide is messed up, but what does that have to do with ciswomen? Do you think ciswomen are responsible for transwomen’s suicides and need for psychiatric inpatient care? I think cis people in general are responsible it, and yeah, that includes cis women. I think a lot of attitudes displayed here are certainly a part of that. > [@](#): > > I’m honestly confused why you think @YWTF should focus on this. Do you not think she can’t produce equally fucked-up statistics about women? What is this, the Oppression Olympics? I didn’t compare the problems of trans people to the problems of any other group, so the whole “Oppression Olympics” shot is inapt, here. That’s really more of a “your side of this fight” kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3150 "2020-08-26T18:45:02Z")
Exactly. If it wasn’t for how transpeople (especially transwomen) were and are treated in this country, I would have started transitioning back when I was a teenager and would have saved myself all the depression, alcoholism, and attempted suicides I went through and I wouldn’t have spent the last 15-20 years totally miserable and hating myself. I can’t say TERFs specifically were much of a problem back then, as it seems to be a relatively new phenomena, but it definitely is now and I see it as one of the main factors right now in the rising backlash to us obtaining equal rights. And there is a big element of Oppression Olympics with the idea that giving us rights will take away rights from ciswomen. Rights aren’t a zero-sum game and this kind of baseless paranoia just increases hatred against us. And yes, @RickJay, misgendering us is dehumanizing us. FYI. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3151 "2020-08-26T18:51:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This whole tack is just a ridiculous attempt to paint male trans allies as hypocrites, and it’s as transparent as if you were calling out straight gay allies for not desiring cock. You’re the one suggesting being an “ally” is the concept anyone’s talking about. Nobody was talking about alliances. They’re asking if all these beardbros, many of whom seem to have discovered an interest in women’s rights only when it’s men identifying as women, really think trans women are women - and the fact that essentially no heterosexual men consider transwomen as potential sexual partners pretty strongly indicates that for many of the guys who SAY “TWAW,” they in fact don’t think TW are entirely W. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it was started when **monstro** asserted ciswomen play _no_ part in transwomen’s suicidality. Emotional blackmail isn’t much of an argument. By all means, keep blaming women for other people’s actions. It’s certainly an old tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3152 "2020-08-26T18:56:35Z")
“You can tell they aren’t really women, because straight guys won’t fuck 'em.” Jesus. And _we’re_ the ones getting called misogynists? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3153 "2020-08-26T18:56:46Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I think it’s totally and completely and obviously true ,regardless of you saying it’s not. I’d probably feel that way even if you had a substantive response. And yet it’s not. Citizenship is a legal fiction. Biology and material reality is not. Furthermore, admitting a person to a nation as an American (to use that example) citizen still allows the concept of “American” to mean something. You cannot meaningfully define “woman” if you stick to your TWAW story. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > More than that, it’s straight out of the right wing playbook. Search far and wide for isolated incidents where a member of the outgroup committed a crime, then use that incident to label the entire outgroup a safety risk. Well, that might explain why I’m not arguing from the basis of transwomen committing crimes. > [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, I get that. I just found it interesting that she found a paper showing the huge amount of suffering endured by trans people, and used it as evidence for an argument that they should suffer more. No one here has argued, or believes, that anyone should suffer more. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3154 "2020-08-26T19:30:05Z")
Biology meaning what? A uterus? How very reductive and not remotely related to the lived experiences of all women, not just transwomen. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3155 "2020-08-26T19:35:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, I get that. I just found it interesting that she found a paper showing the huge amount of suffering endured by trans people, and used it as evidence for an argument that they should suffer more. You attempted to redirect the conversation away from findings that show transwomen and men show similar patterns of criminality. But this deflection only opens up a new set of questions. Where is the evidence that medical and surgical transitioning has long-term benefits to gender discordant individuals? Why is [informed consent](https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/03/transgender-patients-and-informed-consent-who-decides-when-transition-treatment-is-appropriate.html) being promoted so intensely, when it means little will prevent mentally ill persons from subjecting themselves to changes they can’t cope with? [Threatening suicide is a common tactic to emotionally abuse people](https://rcdvcpc.org/images/blog/Blogs/201909-Kelly-Ranasinghe.pdf). Bringing it up right when we’re talking about crimes perpetrated by transwomen is consistent with a larger pattern of emotional manipulation that taints the gender discourse. Whether or not women’s spaces should include transwomen _should have nothing to do with their rates of suicide_. Women should not be forced to sacrifice safety and security just to keep a small fraction of the population from committing suicide. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3156 "2020-08-26T19:35:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’re the one suggesting being an “ally” is the concept anyone’s talking about. I wasn’t the first to use the word “ally” > [@RickJay](#): > > It’s certainly an old tradition. As is erasure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3157 "2020-08-26T19:38:26Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Threatening suicide is a common tactic to emotionally abuse people Jesus fucking Christ. Right after a transwoman posts how she attempted (not threatened) suicide multiple times. But sure , “No one here has argued, or believes, that anyone should suffer more.” ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3158 "2020-08-26T19:44:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Jesus fucking Christ. Right after a transwoman posts how she attempted (not threatened) suicide multiple times. Yes now explain what the point of saying this is after I just said suicide keeps being used to emotionally manipulate people? It’s not @Boudicca90 who is doing it. It’s you and @Miller. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3159 "2020-08-26T19:49:18Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Yes now explain what the point of saying this is after I just said suicide keeps being used to emotionally manipulate people? > > It’s not @Boudicca90 who is doing it. It’s you and @Miller. They are not being “emotionally manipulative”, they are pointing out the reality of our existence, which you and your allies continually deny or diminish. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3160 "2020-08-26T19:51:01Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Jesus fucking Christ. Right after a transwoman posts how she attempted (not threatened) suicide multiple times. > > Yes now explain what the point of saying this is after I just said suicide keeps being used to emotionally manipulate people? Nice try, but the quote is right there - you didn’t say “_mentioning_ suicide”, you said “_threatening_ suicide”. Your bringing it up was so shameful even you won’t stand by your actual words. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3161 "2020-08-26T20:04:10Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > They are not being “emotionally manipulative”, they are pointing out the reality of our existence, which you and your allies continually deny or diminish. Just because I’m advocating for women’s safety and concerns doesn’t mean I’m indifferent to trans people. Not going to lie, though. I’m pretty indiffferent to anyone who is indifferent to what is happening to the female half of the species right now. I don’t want harm to come to them, but no longer will I be sticking my neck out for anyone who can watch that NCAA video and think there is absolutely wrong with that outcome. Or read the the World Rugby findings and still defend competing males against females in that sport. Or defend redefining “ woman” to affirm sexist stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3162 "2020-08-26T20:08:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nice try, but the quote is right there - you didn’t say “ _mentioning_ suicide”, you said “ _threatening_ suicide”. > > Your bringing it up was so shameful even you won’t stand by your actual words. I made a statement about domestic abusers. Just stop with this. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3163 "2020-08-26T20:13:25Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I made a statement about domestic abusers. Sure, that’s _all_ you did…nothing off about the timing of bringing up suicides faking it for emotional manipulation after someone on the opposite side of an argument opened up about suicide attempts _at all_. > [@](#): > > Just stop with this. Stop standing up for oppressed people? Naah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=157) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=159)