# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 177
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3525 "2020-09-16T15:02:27Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Unfortunately, when females take T they actually create pathological side effects. Like vaginal atrophy. Heart and skeletal problems. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even in this Brave New World of gender identity. It’s a pity there’s no way to get the athletic benefits without the unwanted side effects, but that’s the case with most performance enhancing drugs. I don’t think it really makes sense to say that being female is a disability. It can be a useful analogy, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3526 "2020-09-16T15:16:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll also note (again) that this “new” definition is generally a social definition, meaning that **it doesn’t necessarily mean or imply that trans women are identical to cis women and can/should be treated exactly the same in all circumstances**. Trans women are women, but they are not cis women. There are certainly challenges and obstacles faced by cis women that aren’t faced by others. Except that’s what the activists are campaigning for, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. In what circumstances would you support treating them differently? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3527 "2020-09-16T15:17:31Z")
Certain activists, perhaps, but definitely not all. I’m very open to differing treatment in safe spaces for cis women and athletics, for example. I’m sure there are other examples. I’ve spoken to many outspoken trans people and trans allies, including some activists, about this issue, and none of them have expressed disagreement with me. I don’t accept that some obnoxious random internet people somehow represent all trans people, or even all trans rights activists. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3528 "2020-09-16T15:21:02Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > But fundamentally, I don’t think it’s necessary to separate restrooms and locker rooms based on genetics. I feel these spaces should be based more around appearances. We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that appearances are merely a proxy for biological sex (aka “genetics”). If I run a kennel where cats are segregated from dogs (to minimize the risk to cats), then I’m going to keep to this policy even if I get a dog that has been modified to have some cat-like features. Why? Because the underlying rationale for this segregation is to keep cats from being harmed by dogs. A dog modified to look like a cat is still a dog. An animal’s outside appearance is not really relevant. The rationale behind sex-segregation is similar to the above. When we assign importance to appearance, we essentially are saying any man who can convincingly disguise himself as a woman is entitled to use the women’s restroom. This makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3529 "2020-09-16T15:35:27Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > The rationale behind sex-segregation is similar to the above. When we assign importance to appearance, we essentially are saying any man who can convincingly disguise himself as a woman is entitled to use the women’s restroom. This makes no sense to me. A man who makes simple modifications to sneak into the area is likely a threat, but I’m less likely to think that a sincere transwoman who has made a significant effort to gender identify is going to be a threat. I’m not sure where that line is, but someone like Caitlyn\_Jenner is not likely going to present any special threat even though she is genetically male. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3530 "2020-09-16T15:49:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m very open to differing treatment in safe spaces for cis women and athletics, for example. Your TERF card is in the post. 😉 Unfortunately, the main left-wing parties in our respective countries seem to have adopted it as their platform, so it’s far from only being random obnoxious internet people. And it’s cold comfort that not all activists agree - they are not going to be the ones objecting to these policies, and anyone who does is dismissed as a bigot. #RIPJKRowling ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3531 "2020-09-16T16:44:46Z")
I wish there was a trans rights activist that we could all point to as a spokesperson of the movement. Because I think much of the difficulty with this debate comes from not knowing the average trans person on the street really cares about. Like, does the average transwoman think that any male in a woman’s space should be considered a woman unless they say–without being prompted to–that they aren’t? Or is this a fringey view being promoted mainly by radical activists and allies? From where I sit, the more radical TRA voices seem to be winning the day on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3532 "2020-09-16T16:56:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not my understanding of these concepts. That is clearly the case, but hey, my definitions are reasonably coherent. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some of us really believe that transgender is a real and serious psychological concept, involving deeply held beliefs and understandings about a person’s identity I agree. It’s definitely a real psychological phenomenon. I don’t think all these trans people, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people, are just bullshitting. That does not, however, actually turn men into women. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3533 "2020-09-16T17:09:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Certain activists, perhaps, but definitely not all. Can you name any leading trans rights activists who are calling for the compromises you’re in favor of? I’m sincerely asking because I can’t find any evidence of them online. If they exist, they aren’t making any traction in terms of proposed legislative action and moderating the more extreme positions of the far-left. Biden has pledged to erode Title IX in schools by allowing male athletes to play against females. This is not a minor matter. Since this started under Obama, we’ve been able to see in very stark ways (see the 2019 NCAA race I cited earlier) the adverse impacts this is having on female athletes. But his platform shows a blatant disregard for this. It seems to be 100% TWAW all the way with him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3534 "2020-09-16T17:29:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That does not, however, actually turn men into women. Your contempt is noted. There’s no possibility of discussion when you use such incredibly contemptuous language towards trans people. Our society treats trans people like utter dogshit, and I think it’s wrong to pile on such awful stuff on top of this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3535 "2020-09-16T17:33:01Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Biden has pledged to erode Title IX in schools by allowing male athletes to play against females. I’ve been unable to find any evidence for this online other than hit pieces from Trumpists and Trump allies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3536 "2020-09-16T17:34:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Like, does the average transwoman think that any male in a woman’s space should be considered a woman unless they say–without being prompted to–that they aren’t? Or is this a fringey view being promoted mainly by radical activists and allies? I don’t really even see the supposed “radical activists and allies” pushing this. Only different interpretations of advocacy that doesn’t directly address this question. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3537 "2020-09-16T17:44:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I agree. It’s definitely a real psychological phenomenon. I don’t think all these trans people, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people, are just bullshitting. I’m not sure why this “real psychological phenomenon” can’t be considered as part of a coherent definition. If the phenomenon is real, as you acknowledge, then it seems fully coherent to include the many non-bullshitting people who are experiencing that phenomenon. Some lie. Yes, some lie. We might call the liars what they want to be called, even as we think to ourselves that they are lying. But that’s not an incoherence. It just means it can be difficult to find out the truth of internal psychological states. I agree fully with you that we’d then need a new word to denote what used to be denoted by “man” or “woman”. “Male human” or “female human” or whatever. And it needs to stick. It’s absurd to have a continual definitional treadmill. I guess you can then ask, why not stick with the originals? Well, because the word means quite a lot to a lot of people. I don’t see it as any particular semantic hardship for a one-time shift. If people start pushing the semantic treadmill – and I admit that does seem to be the case for some subset of activists, I don’t know how large – then we know their motivations are either not serious or not coherent. But that is not everyone. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3538 "2020-09-16T17:49:45Z")
There are people in this thread who have espoused the view that males in the women’s restrooms/locker rooms–even masculine macho males–should not be asked to justify their presence unless they do something clearly illegal. Folks in this thread have espoused the view that questioning such an individual would be just as wrong as questioning a masculine lesbian using the women’s restroom. If you wouldn’t question the latter, you shouldn’t question the former. So yes, people are pushing this. They are doing so right in front of your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3539 "2020-09-16T17:52:31Z")
I don’t recall such posts. I haven’t read (and may not remember) every single post, though. It’s possible I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3540 "2020-09-16T17:57:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve been unable to find any evidence for this online other than hit pieces from Trumpists and Trump allies. [I just pulled this up from his website:](https://joebiden.com/lgbtq-policy/#) > **Guaranteeing transgender students have access to facilities based on their gender identity.** On his first day in office, Biden will reinstate the [Obama-Biden](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201605-title-ix-transgender.pdf)guidance [revoked](https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-secretary-education-betsy-devos-issues-statement-new-title-ix-guidance) by the Trump-Pence Administration, which will restore transgender students’ access to sports, bathrooms, and locker rooms in accordance with their gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3541 "2020-09-16T18:02:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your contempt is noted. That wasn’t contempt. You’ve been continually misreading RickJay in this thread, and then you scamper away whenever he points it out rather than engaging your past error. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3542 "2020-09-16T18:03:11Z")
Oh please. Donald Trump is a celebrity, right? I bet I can think of dozens, if not hundreds, of people that have more online hate directed at them than JK Rowling. If someone is obsessed with trans issues and only frequents the corners of Twitter that traffic in that obsession, it might seem that way but I assure you she does not get more hated directed at here than literally anyone ever. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3543 "2020-09-16T18:11:29Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > I’m not sure why this “real psychological phenomenon” can’t be considered as part of a coherent definition. If the phenomenon is real, as you acknowledge, then it seems fully coherent to include the many non-bullshitting people who are experiencing that phenomenon. But wouldn’t that mean it needs to be treated as a diagnosable thing, with some criteria behind it? We have that expectation for all other “psychological phenomenon” of social and legal importance. For instance, if I wanted a reasonable accommodation at work for a bad case of agoraphobia, a professional would need to vouch for that. There are no diagnostic criteria for gender identities. That poses definitional challenges. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3544 "2020-09-16T18:15:09Z")
Just calling it like I see it. And most people with such contempt don’t even realize it. It’s possible I’m wrong, of course, but disagreeing with me isn’t convincing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=176) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=178)