# J K Rowling and the trans furore
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 190
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3786 "2020-09-21T16:39:25Z")
I think some folks use “female” in a colloquial way that still sometimes applies to trans women. Not in a clinical way, or in a formal way (except maybe when referring to older records that didn’t make this distinction possible), but just in some everyday conversation, in my experience. I doubt that’s likely to change.
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3787 "2020-09-21T16:48:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I think some folks use “female” in a colloquial way that still sometimes applies to trans women.
But a few posts ago, didn’t you suggest that as long as transwomen don’t count as “male” when interpreting Title IX, then all is fine?
You’re talking about applying these terms to trans persons even in a legal sense. That’s the complete opposite of colloquial.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3788 "2020-09-21T16:51:15Z")
OK, it’s great that you doubt that’s going to change. But you do realize that this is what TRAs are pushing for, right? This is what JKR is responding to when she says “sex is real”. And the people shouting her down, whether they realize it or not, are defending the idea that “female” has the same squooshiness as “woman”. If JKR can be shouted down for saying something as uncontroversial as “sex is real”, then hell yes I’m going to be worried about what’s going to happen to the “female” designation if TRAs start influencing legislation to a significant degree.
I’m just not seeing the nuance to their position that you seem to be assuming is there.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3789 "2020-09-21T16:54:55Z")
> [@YWTF](#):
>
> But a few posts ago, didn’t you suggest that as long as transwomen don’t count as “male” when interpreting Title IX, then all is fine?
Title IX was written before transgender was understood, much less accepted, by anyone beyond a small minority (thus my “older records” caveat in my previous post). I think the Obama/Biden guidance does a good job of clarifying how it should be applied to trans kids, and protecting both the rights of trans kids and fairness and safety for cis girls.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3790 "2020-09-21T17:03:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I think some folks use “female” in a colloquial way that still sometimes applies to trans women. Not in a clinical way, or in a formal way (except maybe when referring to older records that didn’t make this distinction possible), but just in some everyday conversation, in my experience. I doubt that’s likely to change.
What should be the formal (clinical) term when we are referring to females in the traditional sense of the word?
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3791 "2020-09-21T17:03:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Title IX was written before transgender was understood, much less accepted, by anyone beyond a small minority.
So the answer is yes. You are perfectly content to see “female” and “male” redefined _in a legal context_ to enable transwomen and transmen to be exempt from sex-segregation policies.
So it’s rather curious that you just brought up colloquial usage. As if that’s the extent of it and we don’t need to worry our silly little heads over anything more significant than this.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3792 "2020-09-21T17:04:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> What should be the formal (clinical) term when we are referring to females in the traditional sense of the word?
“Biologically female”, or “cis women”, or similar, depending on the context. In my understanding.
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3793 "2020-09-21T17:08:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Title IX was written before transgender was understood, much less accepted, by anyone beyond a small minority (thus my “older records” caveat in my previous post).
Sex exists. None of this has changed. A (biological) female pitted against a (biological) male is not a fair contest. Gender identity doesn’t change this reality because _sex is real_.
Sex is real.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3794 "2020-09-21T17:08:59Z")
Agree with all of this except that the third sentence is only usually true, not always true, in my understanding.
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### Author:  [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3795 "2020-09-21T17:18:26Z")
There’s much I don’t understand about this topic. Would referring to male born humans as ‘Y’ and female born humans as ‘X’ solve any of these issues? Or Y and X sports teams?
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### Author:  [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3796 "2020-09-21T17:21:24Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#):
>
> There’s much I don’t understand about this topic. Would referring to male born humans as ‘Y’ and female born humans as ‘X’ solve any of these issues?
No.
There are people who are born with essentially complete female anatomy who have the Y chromosome. They present physically as women, no one would even suspect they have a Y but either the gene that activates male hormones, which turns a fetus into a male, is inactive, or the hormones exist and they aren’t received by the cells.
But these people are women. ETA: often they can’t reproduce, which is how it’s typically found out. But that comes as a major shock to everyone.
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3797 "2020-09-21T17:23:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Agree with all of this except that the third sentence is only usually true, not always true, in my understanding.
It is not fair when female access to equal opportunity is denied. This has been decided in court just a few ago, so “in my understanding” is kind of irrelevant.
Same with a layman asserting that Title IX was written during a time of an outdated views towards sex/gender, thus allowing us to reinterpet sex-specific language. The court just reviewed and decided, yup, “female” only means a member of specific sex class. It doesn’t mean males who see themselves as female.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3798 "2020-09-21T17:59:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> In the case you propose, if “male” and “female” refer only to biological sex, then we’d need new or modified terms for adjectival versions of the gender-designating words “man” and “woman”. For instance, it wouldn’t make sense to say that a transgender man has a “male gender identity”, right? Because that would imply that he has biologically male sex, which he doesn’t.
I don’t see why that wouldn’t make sense. You could perfectly well say an individual with CAIS has male sex chromosomes and male hormones but female external genitalia and female secondary sex characteristics. And this person could have a male or female gender identity. What does a male gender identity even mean if not one that is normally found in biological males?
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Sure; as I keep saying, the meanings of words depend on what humans use them to mean, not on logically rigid dictates about what they “have to” mean.
What are all the objections to people saying ‘only women have uteruses’ if not an attempt to enforce a single logically rigid meaning for the word ‘women’?
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3799 "2020-09-21T18:05:53Z")
> [@Hellestal](#):
>
> There are people who are born with essentially complete female anatomy who have the Y chromosome. They present physically as women, no one would even suspect they have a Y but either the gene that activates male hormones, which turns a fetus into a male, is inactive, or the hormones exist and they aren’t received by the cells.
>
> But these people are women. ETA: often they can’t reproduce, which is how it’s typically found out. But that comes as a major shock to everyone.
AIUI they usually discover their condition at puberty when menstruation fails to start. They don’t have complete _internal_ female anatomy, but since that’s not visible it tends to be regarded as less important than the male sex organs.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3800 "2020-09-21T18:11:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> The battle for definitions is over. “Women”, by common usage, has multiple meanings and some of them include trans women. That’s a fact, and continuing to pretend that it’s not a fact is obnoxious and even gaslighting.
If that’s so (and since the vast majority of people in the English-speaking world have no idea about this, the battle actually isn’t over) then please tell me what terms you want me to use for the concepts previously expressed by “man” and “woman” so we can proceed with discussing what to do with safe spaces, athletics, and the like. “Biologically female”? That seems pointlessly long, but okay. I’ll shorten those to BF and BM.
Sports (aside from co-ed recreational stuff and the like) should be divided into biologically male and biologically female. In most cases BF can participate in BM sports, but BM can never particulate in BF sports.
Services like Vancouver Rape Relief should be allowed to limit their employees and clients to BFs and not be castigated for it.
Changerooms should be split into BF and BM, though, again, the BM changeroom can be open to BFs in appropriate circumstances.
It should be commonly understood that sexual orientation is generally geared towards how potential sex partners are BF or BM, and people like Rachel McKinnon who say it’s immoral to be gay should be regarded as the rape apologists they are.
I’m not being mean, am I?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3801 "2020-09-21T18:14:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> I’m not being mean, am I?
Actually, no. I have some policy disagreements (and I’m unsure about the facts re: McKinnon), but I’m absolutely fine with this language.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3802 "2020-09-21T18:15:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> and I’m unsure about the facts re: McKinnon
“All sexual orientations except pan are immoral” is, I believe, the exact quote, and supported by a lot of other quotes.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3803 "2020-09-21T18:17:10Z")
I’ll google because I don’t know who this person is.
EDIT: Okay, I’d heard of her, but by the name Veronica Ivy. I knew about the cycling stuff. I didn’t recall her older name.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3804 "2020-09-21T18:40:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> “Biologically female”, or “cis women”, or similar, depending on the context. In my understanding.
So biological sex is still important as a differentiator but it makes more sense to drop the “trans” prefix from a small group of individuals and add the “cis” prefix to the much larger group.
So as a hetero-male, my gender identity has not changed, but as I go around identifying as a cis-male, would a (formerly identifying) transman continue to feel marginalized as merely a “man”? Or maybe, since ideally we’d both use “man” as a socially encompassing term, what’s wrong with him keeping the trans-man assignation? I mean, why the label games when not only is nobody fooled, arguably nothing meaningful is achieved.
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### Author:  [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3805 "2020-09-21T19:02:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Before transition, Caitlyn Jenner presumably had a female gender identity, but had a standard male body, dressed like a man, won medals in a male Olympic competition, married women and fathered children with them. She never had to worry about abortion laws or being denied equal pay. A categorisation scheme that lumps pre-transition Caitlyn Jenner in with women just isn’t a very useful one.
Do you think she should perhaps have to return those Olympic medals she earned as Bruce since she was already Caitlyn underneath? Or can people have lives consisting of different phases but all part of one continuum?
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