# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 196
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3906 "2020-09-23T03:53:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ve listened to feminists who disagree with you. **And the feminists who disagree with you have made a much stronger case to me.** Like what? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely asking. What did they say that made a stronger case to you that makes you believe that transwomen should be allowed access to women’s spaces? You said that you concede that gatekeeping is necessary…if it were your call what gatekeeping would you put in place and how would it be enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3907 "2020-09-23T04:07:33Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Probably what these parents are teaching their kid: > > The experience has been a gift for us both > > “We have taught Zoomer about their own body without using boy-girl labels. Zoomer understands that some girls have penises and some boys have vulvas, and some intersex kids have vulvas and testes. Zoomer knows some daddies get pregnant and some nonbinary parents are called Zazas.” Good lord. Why even have words like male and female and men and women if the meanings are going to be so watered down to not offend a certain segment of the population? There comes a point where political correctness becomes madness. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3908 "2020-09-23T04:12:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …well I’m sorry if your feelings are hurt: but transwomen are women. And that’s the truth as far as I’m concerned. Are they though? Or are they men who wish they were women? I’m having trouble understanding your use of the term “women.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3909 "2020-09-23T05:57:25Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And who the hell has belilttled suicide here? The person bringing up fake attention-seeking suicide attempts _right after_ a transperson mentions their own actual suicide attempts. > [@](#): > > The only person belittling suicide is you, Nice try, but no. _Mentioning_ that actually belittling suicide can drive off the “brave” trans people you supposedly want around is not _belittling_ suicide. I’m not mentioning it to “score points”, I’m mentioning it because it points to the underlying problem - “Oh, I want brave trans people. But they have to be brave enough to put up with whatever extremely personal damaging shit my sister chooses to throw their way”. What that point has to do with the “people with cervixes” bit I have no idea, as I was _just_ replying to the hypocrisy of your lamenting the lack of “brave” trans people when you’re defending the very thing that keeps them away - from this thread and this board. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3910 "2020-09-23T06:02:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Is that really how you want to characterize the trans community? A bunch of borderlines who will kill themselves if they get any pushback on their ideas? What the fuck? No - I’m saying when transpeople do try and kill themselves _ **for all the other reasons they might have** _, _then_ belittling their suicide attempts afterwards is not encouraging them to _want to talk to you_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3911 "2020-09-23T06:02:59Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > Like what? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely asking. What did they say that made a stronger case to you that makes you believe **that transwomen should be allowed access to women’s spaces?** …is that really what you think this is all about? This is (and always have been) about much more than just this. This just happens to be one of the issues that trans-exclusive activists have pushed to the forefront. This interview with Judith Butler published yesterday articulates the trans-inclusive position well. It addresses almost every point made in this thread. > **[Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in...](https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-living-anti-intellectual-times)** > > The philosopher and gender theorist discusses tensions in the feminist movement over trans rights > [@Summerday](#): > > You said that you concede that gatekeeping is necessary…if it were your call what gatekeeping would you put in place and how would it be enforced? Unlike some other people in this thread I’m not particularly interested in repeating myself for a third time. My views have already been expressed in this thread. And this thread is in IMHO, it isn’t in Great Debates, and at the moment (like most of the other trans-inclusive posters on the boards) am not really interested in rehashing the debate again. The search function is really good now. If you want to know my views then by all means feel free to make use of it. > [@Biffster](#): > > Are they though? Or are they men who wish they were women? Only a handful of posts ago Boudicca90 stated that she was a woman. That post didn’t confuse me at all. Did it confuse you? Are you having trouble understanding what she meant by the term “women?” Do you think that she is “actually a man who wishes she were a woman?” Because if that is what you really think, then just come out and say that then. Don’t hide behind the rhetorical question. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3912 "2020-09-23T06:04:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Seems like the difference between me and you is that you see this group as an innocent monolith. No. I just don’t want the real transwomen I know to be thrown under the bus with the fake-trans boogeyman that only really lives in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3913 "2020-09-23T07:08:48Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Unlike some other people in this thread I’m not particularly interested in repeating myself for a third time. My views have already been expressed in this thread. Well, this thread has been going on for several months and is nearly 4,000 posts long, so forgive me for not having realized that you had previously posted about gatekeeping and for not memorizing what you said back in August. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This interview with Judith Butler published yesterday articulates the trans-inclusive position well. It addresses almost every point made in this thread. I didn’t see where it explained why transwomen should use women’s spaces instead of unisex/trans spaces. Would you quote the relevant part? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3914 "2020-09-23T07:22:45Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > Well, this thread has been going on for several months and is nearly 4,000 posts long, so forgive me for not having realized that you had previously posted about gatekeeping and for not memorizing what you said back in August. …well now you know. > [@Summerday](#): > > I didn’t see where it explained why transwomen should use women’s spaces instead of unisex/trans spaces. Would you quote the relevant part? Perhaps you didn’t read my post closely enough. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m sorry you feel that way. But I listen plenty. I’ve listened to you: I’ve listened to feminists who disagree with you. And the feminists who disagree with you have made a much stronger case to me. If you are asking me to pick a side then I’m not picking yours. I’ll stand with the trans-inclusive feminists, not the trans-exclusive ones. This was the post you responded too. You asked me this question: > [@Summerday](#): > > Like what? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely asking. What did they say that made a stronger case to you that **makes you believe that transwomen should be allowed access to women’s spaces?** Why did you ask me that question? As I stated: that **wasn’t** what I was addressing. We aren’t just talking about access. This issue is about much more than this. I told you this. So I didn’t provide a cite to answer your very narrow cherry picked question that really had nothing to do with what I said. I provided a link the opinion of a prominent feminist as an example of feminist arguments that have convinced me to stand with trans-inclusive feminists. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3915 "2020-09-23T08:01:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And “truth” is subjective. But facts aren’t, and they do matter. One can and should have a polite conversation and navigate a civil society by swerving facts that may make people feel unhappy and upset. We do that all the time. That only works most of the time though. You can’t have a full and productive conversation without sometimes referencing awkward facts that some people might rather ignore or seek to completely subvert. The _fact_ remains that the majority of of trans people have a clear and unambiguous biological sex, with the chromosomes and construction that correspond to it and modification only changing some external manifestations of it to a greater or lesser extent. And biological sex matters to many people in many ways. A discussion on trans rights and access would be failing if it did not recognise that fact where it was relevant. And in this thread it _absolutely_ is relevant. Facts can be awkward, facts can be uncomfortable but it serves neither side to wish or pretend they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3916 "2020-09-23T08:10:28Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Consider this group of people: > > Are they men, women, a mix of both, none of the above? Who knows? It just depends on how they self-identify. If all 4 of these people can be a woman because they self-identify as a woman, what does it even mean to identify as a woman? When we’re trying to decide how transwomen will fit into traditionally-female spaces, we have to consider that all 4 of these people may be transwomen. For me, it’s not clear why any of those pictures couldn’t or shouldn’t be used to expand the definition of a man instead of expanding the definition of a transwoman. If a person has a male body and no interest in making changes to that body…how do they become a transwoman just by wearing makeup? Or a skirt, or heels? Plenty of women don’t ever wear make-up, that doesn’t make them men. So why does wearing women’s clothes change a man into a transwoman? Why are they not just a man that wears make-up/skirt/heels? The narrative has been that trans people deeply feel that they were born into the wrong body and they need to alter that body to feel whole. What’s unclear to me is if they aren’t trapped in the wrong body and they don’t want to alter their body, then why would they not use the locker room that corresponds to that body? I guess I don’t understand why a person with a male body who doesn’t want to change their body can’t use the locker room for people with male bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3917 "2020-09-23T08:19:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Why did you ask me that question? As I stated: that **wasn’t** what I was addressing. We aren’t just talking about access. This issue is about much more than this. I told you this. I was simply trying to participate in the discussion; that’s why I asked. I was curious to know what they said that made you feel that way. I didn’t realize that you would view it as a “cherry picked question.” But as you said, now I know. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3918 "2020-09-23T08:43:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Facts can be awkward, facts can be uncomfortable but it serves neither side to wish or pretend they don’t exist. …except trans-positive feminists aren’t ignoring the facts. Facts aren’t actually awkward, but facts can and have been **weaponised in this debate**. And you can’t ignore that if you want to have a full and productive conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3919 "2020-09-23T09:22:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …except trans-positive feminists aren’t ignoring the facts. Maybe that group aren’t, certainly some very vocal sections within the debate are. I don’t see why any group should have a problem with statements of fact such as “transwomen are biologically male” when raised in the relevant context of a discussion on male/female spaces etc. > [@](#): > > Facts aren’t actually awkward, but facts can and have been **weaponised in this debate** I disagree strongly. I think facts can be very, very awkward indeed. I’m not sure I know what you mean by "weaponised " facts. Can you give an example? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3920 "2020-09-23T09:28:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Maybe that group aren’t, certainly some very vocal sections within the debate are. > I don’t see why any group should have a problem with statements of fact such as “transwomen are biologically male” when raised in the relevant context of a discussion on male/female spaces etc. …lets look at how that is actually being used in this thread. Its being used by posters like RickJay who posts pictures of transwomen and calls them men. That isn’t relevant context in the relevant discussion on male/female spaces. Its deliberate provocation. Not constructive and not relevant. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I disagree strongly. I think facts can be very, very awkward indeed. Of course you do. But nobody here is complaining that the facts are “awkward.” Its that the “facts” aren’t actually that important to the debate. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not sure I know what you mean by "weaponised " facts. Can you give an example? I already have. RickJay’s habit of posting photos of transwomen and calling them men. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3921 "2020-09-23T09:35:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Maybe that group aren’t, certainly some very vocal sections within the debate are. > I don’t see why any group should have a problem with statements of fact such as “transwomen are biologically male” when raised in the relevant context of a discussion on male/female spaces etc. Some groups do, and not fringe ones either. See this, published on the everyday feminism website: [https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/02/trans-women-not-biologically-male/](https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/02/trans-women-not-biologically-male/) Judith Butler, who Banquet\_Bear linked to earlier, claimed that sex is socially constructed. This sort of thing is why JKR is saying ‘sex is real’. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3922 "2020-09-23T10:00:28Z")
@Banquet_Bear > believing that “black lives matters” in the face of expressed concerns over a political ideology didn’t make Colin Kaepernick look like a brainwashed cult member defending a cult. The “slogan” isn’t the problem. Colin Kaepernick and other black lives matters folks have a clearly articulated list of demands. They do not just recite “BLACK LIVE MATTERS!!” whenever someone asks what they mean by defunding the police. They have substantive answers to charges that BLM supporters want to get rid of the police and allow society to descend into anarchy. They use their slogan in protests and rallies. But in discussions and debates, they come armed with a clear vision that they can share with the skeptics and the leery. They can tell you what victory and failure looks like. Failure isn’t just black people not getting what they want. Failure would also include uncontrolled criminality and a society where everyone feels unsafe and insecure. I’ve asked several times about what the trans community’s vision is. Is it a world where trans folks have fair housing, employment, education, etc.? Or is it a world where trans folks have all of this PLUS they can access whatever space they want, without anyone telling them to GTFO? Do trans folks think they will always be a small minority of the public, which is why they think no one has to worry about words and concepts losing meaning? Or do trans folks believe that an ideal society is one where transwomen and ciswomen are equally represented and all spaces essentially function as unisex spaces? What does failure look like? Is it trans people not getting everything they want? Or does failure also include ciswomen being harmed? I’m fixated on spaces because spaces are important to me and other women. Safe spaces protect women and spare us from the shit that we get in the outside world. If the potential invasion of safe spaces wasn’t an issue, then I wouldn’t care about this topic because it would essentially be about people protesting for the right to wear the clothing they want and going by the pronouns they want. That’s not what gender is for me. For me, gender is heavily about the power dynamics between males and females and the need for the latter to protect themselves from the former. I could wear male clothing and still suffer from this dynamic. So I’m going to need some safe spaces where I get a respite from male bullshit. I am OK with opening the door to special clear-cut cases. But I don’t want that door forced open by anyone who wants to come inside. I want to always have the right to say “no” to the individual demanding access to my gender class and its privileges. I see TRA and allies fighting to take away this right. I just can’t see how that isn’t oppressive. I’m actually relieved you are OK with some gatekeeping because it does show that you care about what women are saying. But the slogan you keep reciting doesn’t provide that nuance. It seems to me a lot of the voices on the internet who recite that slogan don’t want any gatekeeping because they think if you don’t see every male who claims “woman” as a woman, you’ve committed some kind of travesty against humanity. Even when you’re just trying to protect yourself. I want no part of an ideology that doesn’t the consider safety and security of all marginalized, vulnerable groups. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3923 "2020-09-23T10:14:58Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > The narrative has been that trans people deeply feel that they were born into the wrong body and they need to alter that body to feel whole. What’s unclear to me is if they aren’t trapped in the wrong body and they don’t want to alter their body, then why would they not use the locker room that corresponds to that body? > > I guess I don’t understand why a person with a male body who doesn’t want to change their body can’t use the locker room for people with male bodies. I have asked this question multiple times already, and have yet to see a good response. Why does gender identity (which lives in the mind) necessitate people undressing and sheltering with people of the opposite sex (which is a condition of the body)? What hardship arises when Alex Drummond is asked to pee in the room reserved for people with penises? No one is under the impression that Alex doesn’t have a penis, so she’s not outing herself by using this space. No doubt there are transwomen who can convincingly pass as women. Odds are they’ve been using women’s spaces already and no one has cared because they code these people as women rather than men. But women _will_ care if policies start entitling people like Alex Drummond to this space. Because it will never be self-evident why they have a bona fide need. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3924 "2020-09-23T11:00:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This interview with Judith Butler published yesterday articulates the trans-inclusive position well. It addresses almost every point made in this thread. Okay, citing Butler is not the road to legitimacy, mate. [She and other proponents of queer theory have a history of excusing and diminishing the harms of incest and pedophilia](https://uncommongroundmedia.com/the-trojan-unicorn-qt-and-paedophilia-part-iv-dr-em/); the stink of this association has made her a controversial figure inside and outside feminists circles. Holding her up only as vindication suggests that either you know none of this backstory or you’re hoping none of us do. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/3925 "2020-09-23T11:16:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Colin Kaepernick and other black lives matters folks have a clearly articulated list of demands. They do not just recite “BLACK LIVE MATTERS!!” whenever someone asks what they mean by defunding the police. They have substantive answers to charges that BLM supporters want to get rid of the police and allow society to descend into anarchy. …this thread has been going for **months**. You are one of the top posters in this thread. How can you have posted so many times and not actually listened to what people have said? What transgender people want has been clearly articulated, both inside this thread and outside of it. But some primers. > **[Understanding the Transgender Community](https://www.hrc.org/resources/understanding-the-transgender-community)** > > Transgender people come from all walks of life. We are dads and moms, brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. We are your coworkers, and your neighbors. > **[Supporting the Transgender People in Your Life: A Guide to Being a Good Ally](https://transequality.org/issues/resources/supporting-the-transgender-people-in-your-life-a-guide-to-being-a-good-ally)** > > Learning to be an ally to the transgender people in your life, or to transgender people overall, is an ongoing process. Some ways to be a good ally are simple and easy, while others require more time, energy, and commitment. Whether you’re looking... > **[Tips for Allies of Transgender People | GLAAD](https://glaad.org/transgender/allies)** > > Tips for Allies of Transgender People The following are tips that can be used as you move toward becoming a better ally to transgender people. Of course, this list is not exhaustive and cannot include all the "right" things to do or say because often... > **[What transgender people want you to know](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-transgender-people-want-you-to-know/)** > > ​Words matter, and in the transgender community, language may help clear a path to acceptance and a safer life I’m not just yelling a slogan. People fighting for the rights of transgender people aren’t just yelling slogans. If thats all you see then you simply haven’t been listening. > [@](#): > > They use their slogan in protests and rallies. And sometimes they use it in messageboard posts. > [@](#): > > But in discussions and debates, they come armed with a clear vision that they can share with the skeptics and the leery. This isn’t a debate thread. Its in IMHO, and expressing my humble opinion here is a perfectly valid thing to do. I don’t have to meet your standard of “clear vision.” > [@](#): > > They can tell you what victory and failure looks like. And yet I could speak to two different BLM protestors and they would give me two different definitions of what “victory” and “failure” would be. It isn’t as clear as you claim it to be. > [@](#): > > Failure isn’t just black people not getting what they want. Failure would also include uncontrolled criminality and a society where everyone feels unsafe and insecure. Failure for transgender people looks very much like the road America is heading right now. They already have been banned from serving in the armed forces. They have already had their rights stripped by the administration. And with the prospects of a stacked Supreme Court things are looking even grimmer. > [@monstro](#): > > I’ve asked several times about what the trans community’s vision is. Is it a world where trans folks have fair housing, employment, education, etc.? Or is it a world where trans folks have all of this PLUS they can access whatever space they want, without anyone telling them to GTFO? Do trans folks think they will always be a small minority of the public, which is why they think no one has to worry about words and concepts losing meaning? Or do trans folks believe that an ideal society is one where transwomen and ciswomen are equally represented and all spaces essentially function as unisex spaces? **What does failure look like?** Is it trans people not getting everything they want? Or does failure also include ciswomen being harmed? But what does failure look like? Well it looks like this thread. It looks like this messageboard. Where casual transhopia is so accepted that people can practically call transgender people “delusional” and nobody bats an eyelid. We have failed transgender people on these boards. We could do so much better. > [@monstro](#): > > I’m fixated on spaces because spaces are important to me and other women. Safe spaces protect women and spare us from the shit that we get in the outside world. If the potential invasion of safe spaces wasn’t an issue, then I wouldn’t care about this topic because it would essentially be about people protesting for the right to wear the clothing they want and going by the pronouns they want. And everybody: and I mean ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY in this thread understands this. And **everybody** in this thread want safe spaces to protect women. But here is the fundamental disconnect. And it comes right back to the slogan that you hate. Trans-inclusive feminists believe transwomen are women, and they believe that transwomen have every right to be in those spaces to be protected as well. Men **who pretend to be women** to gain access to those spaces **are not transwomen**. You can’t conflate the two. Transwomen need as much respite from male bullshit as you do. It isn’t a matter of privilege. Its a matter of safety. > [@Rolling Stone](#): > > **On her first experience being attacked:** > “I was 19 when I had my ribs broken. They stomped on me and they beat me so bad they tore my dress off, they tore my panties off [and] they ripped my brand new wig.… They chased me and my two friends. They caught me because I had heels. They were strappy. I would have thrown them away. I wouldn’t have cared. They were probably in their mid-20s. Three men, drunk, very large. They kicked me so many times in the ribs. I tried to cover my face to protect my face. As I’m laying there, pretty much lifeless, a guy whips out his penis about to urinate on me. That’s disgusting. > > “People did come to my aid. The police came. The EMTs came. They put a tube in my throat. The police officer says, as I’m sitting in the gurney, ‘This never would have happened to you if you weren’t wearing a dress and trying to fool men.'” > **[What It's Like to Use a Public Bathroom While Trans](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/what-its-like-to-use-a-public-bathroom-while-trans-65793/)** > > We talked to trans people across the country about North Carolina's anti-trans law, and their experiences with using public restrooms. Imagine how hard it is trying to navigate something as simple as going to the toilet while being transgender. Which bathroom do you think Alaina (the transwomen in the story) should be allowed to use? > [@monstro](#): > > But the slogan you keep reciting doesn’t provide that nuance. Of course it doesn’t provide nuance. Transwomen are women is about as un-nuanced a position as you can get. > [@monstro](#): > > It seems to me a lot of the voices on the internet who recite that slogan don’t want any gatekeeping because they think if you don’t see every male who claims “woman” as a woman, you’ve committed some kind of travesty against humanity. Well it isn’t that. Gatekeeping is a loaded word. I’ll use it for the sake of clarity. But should there be rules like the Olympic standard for transgender athletes? Sure. Do we need to keep women prisoners safe from sexual predators? Absolutely. But we can address the outliers without having to give up everything else. And not misgendering people is simply a matter of politeness. I posted these in another thread. > [@Happy people](#): > > I’ve been going to my local steak and cheese joint for 9 years now, beginning in 2011, and for 5 of them I was nicknamed “the cheese steak guy.” In 2016 when I fully transitioned as a women, one day I showed up and was asked “the usual, steak and cheese girl?” > [@](#): > > I went to a restaurant recently and the server was someone I went to highschool with and she recognized me and said “you’re looking really good! What do you go by now?” And it made me so happy because I never know how to breach that subject and she was supportive right away! > [@](#): > > My favourite reaction was “hey, I hear I’ve been getting your name wrong this whole time. Lets start over! I’m x, nice to meet you.” > [@](#): > > When I went into my bank with my name change documents the lady behind the counter was like “finally! We were wondering when you were going to do that. Congrats” and then went around all the other tellers to share my new name with them. > > I was in my old neighbourhood and stopped by the corner store for cigarettes and the owner, who saw me for several times a week for 5 years just wen “Long time no see _looks at card_ Eleanor!” > > It was grand 😃 > > Former coworker transitioned. Older gentleman/regular customer came in one day and said “what’s your new name? Is that your true self? I’m happy for you.” Patted him on the shoulder and walked off. I got a bit teary. > > My bagel guy told me he loved me. Well, what he said was, “everything, tofu scallion, right?” But considering I had completely swapped out gender presentation and he still knew my order he basically said “I love you and thanks for your continued patronage” > > My sisters friend from college said “I like your new look! What’s your name again?” That was awesome. > > When the owner of the Chinese place I go to saw me for the first time after transitioning she said “handsome young man! It’s good to see you again, what’s your name now?” and i felt so much relief > **[Here Are 30 People’s Tweets About How Others Reacted To Their Gender...](https://www.boredpanda.com/people-gender-transition-stories-twitter/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic)** > > Transgender communities around the world face a number of difficulties and obstacles. However, the world has its ways of showing some positivity on the matter, thus restoring our faith in humanity. Such a simple thing can make such a huge difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=195) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=197)