# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 202
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4026 "2020-09-24T13:46:52Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not suggesting there is a problem as yet but prevention is better than cure. …forcing transgender people to go through an experience that takes years, requires intrusive medical assessments and lengthy demeaning interviews when you **can’t suggest that there is an actual problem** is a cruel and heartless position to hold. Why should they have to go through that process “just in case?” > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > By what measures can that be judged? What objective standard would be set to confirm that they are or are not doing this? Typically an objective standard doesn’t [always](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_and_objective_standard_of_reasonableness#:~:text=In%20United%20States%20criminal%20law,in%20a%20criminal%20law%20case.&text=Serravo%20(1992)%2C%20the%20court,rule%20is%20the%20objective%20standard.) [have](https://www.ideablawg.ca/blog/2013/6/4/the-subjectiveobjective-debate-explained.html) to be met. And I don’t think purely objective measures would be needed to be used here. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4027 "2020-09-24T13:50:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Typically an objective standard doesn’t [always](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_and_objective_standard_of_reasonableness#:~:text=In%20United%20States%20criminal%20law,in%20a%20criminal%20law%20case.&text=Serravo%20(1992)%2C%20the%20court,rule%20is%20the%20objective%20standard.) [have](https://www.ideablawg.ca/blog/2013/6/4/the-subjectiveobjective-debate-explained.html) to be met. And I don’t think purely objective measures would be needed to be used here. Do you think having a full beard meets the standard of living as a woman? I think at least 3 examples of transwomen with beards have been posted in this thread already. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4028 "2020-09-24T13:51:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ll be a well-behaved woman because I don’t want people screaming TERF at the camera phone video of me that’s posted on Reddit. …forgetting about this thread for a minute. But you do whatever you need to do to be safe. That’s more important than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4029 "2020-09-24T13:54:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and when a butch lesbian appears, or when a transman appears, a women summons the bouncer or a manager and they get the boot as well. This is the homophobia that I keep seeing from TRAs and allies. Why is it that “butch lesbians” keep being equated to men? As if they are indistinguishable from Danielle Moscato and Alex Drummond. It’s always lesbians who are given this treatment, even though straight and bi women also enjoy masculine aesthetics. _Lesbians are as much women as any other women_; their clothes and grooming have fuckall to do with how they are perceived in the women’s locker room. And also notice BB is implying it’s somehow wrong for women to ring the alarm when they see an apparent men, because of the possibility they might be unfairly targeting a female. Kind of completely contradicts what BB said to @monstro earlier about not judging her for…raising an alarm when confronted with an apparent man. So which is it? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Bullshit. I objected because the photo of Danielle was an old photo and not close to how they present **now**. So what? This is a red herring. Why does it matter how they present now? I promise you Danielle is still coded as a man by 95% seeing her and that’s what we are talking about. A few months on estrogen doesn’t eliminate male phenotype. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4030 "2020-09-24T13:54:31Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I think at least 3 examples of transwomen with beards have been posted in this thread already. …the examples I’ve seen in this thread of transwomen with beards have all been misrepresentations of **how they present now.** ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4031 "2020-09-24T13:56:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the examples I’ve seen in this thread of transwomen with beards have all been misrepresentations of **how they present now.** So what? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4032 "2020-09-24T13:58:34Z")
I appreciate you saying this. But I don’t want women to get mixed messages. “Do whatever you need to do to be safe but don’t hurt anyone’s feelings!” isn’t helpful, and yet that’s what we’re being told to do. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4033 "2020-09-24T13:58:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the examples I’ve seen in this thread of transwomen with beards have all been misrepresentations of **how they present now.** What about Alex Drummond, who proudly wears her beard? And stepping away from whether other transwomen shaved their beard, do you think having a beard is aligned with living as a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4034 "2020-09-24T13:59:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …forcing transgender people to go through an experience that takes years, requires intrusive medical assessments and lengthy demeaning interviews when you **can’t suggest that there is an actual problem** is a cruel and heartless position to hold. Why should they have to go through that process “just in case?” OK, so you don’t think any medical questions or interviews are needed. A declaration is enough. That takes us back in circle to the problem of a simple declaration being enough in and of itself. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Typically an objective standard doesn’t [always](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_and_objective_standard_of_reasonableness#:~:text=In%20United%20States%20criminal%20law,in%20a%20criminal%20law%20case.&text=Serravo%20(1992)%2C%20the%20court,rule%20is%20the%20objective%20standard.) [have](https://www.ideablawg.ca/blog/2013/6/4/the-subjectiveobjective-debate-explained.html) to be met. And I don’t think purely objective measures would be needed to be used here. So what subjective measures are reasonable then? You do seem very eager to avoid committing yourself to any appearance of scrutinising such declarations at all. If that is your position why not just say so? Why hide behind a reference to the legal power of a statutory declaration that seems to have no means of judgement or enforcement. (or at least none that you are willing to give as examples) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4035 "2020-09-24T14:07:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …forgetting about this thread for a minute. But you do whatever you need to do to be safe. That’s more important than anything else. I appreciate it too. Social pressure is a powerful thing, though. I’d probably do the same as @Monstro. Women are under a lot of social pressure to be nice and kind and considerate and to put ourselves last. It’s easy to take advantage of and so it alarms me to see progressives pushing that same message on women. (Yes, even when it’s other women doing it.) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4036 "2020-09-24T14:11:09Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > This is the homophobia that I keep seeing from TRAs and allies. Why is it that “butch lesbians” keep being equated to men? …I don’t equate them with men. [https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-kicked-out-of-bowling-alley-because-she-used-the-womens-restroom/](https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-kicked-out-of-bowling-alley-because-she-used-the-womens-restroom/) > **[Lesbian riled by boot from ladies room](https://www.nydailynews.com/2007/06/30/lesbian-riled-by-boot-from-ladies-room/)** > > A masculine lesbian was kicked out of a Greenwich Village restaurant after a bouncer – who believed she was a man – saw her in the ladies’ bathroom, the woman charged yesterday. K… > **[I’m Proof Bathroom Bills Are Not Just a Transgender Issue](https://time.com/4322953/north-carolina-mississippi-bathroom-bills/)** > > I’m a lesbian and I fear public restroom confrontations [https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/ejection-of-a-woman-from-a-womens-room-prompts-lawsuit/](https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/ejection-of-a-woman-from-a-womens-room-prompts-lawsuit/) > **[Butch Please: Butch in the Bathroom](https://www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/)** > > She looked me up and down, shook her head like she was clearing her ears, and then turned to check the sign on the door. Ah, I thought. The only people equating butch lesbians with men are the people who are kicking them out of bathrooms. This isn’t exactly an uncommon event. > [@YWTF](#): > > As if they are indistinguishable from Danielle Moscato and Alex Drummond. It’s always lesbians who are given this treatment, even though straight and bi women also enjoy masculine aesthetics. _Lesbians are as much women as any other women_ ; their clothes and grooming have fuckall to do with how they are perceived in the women’s locker room. Then perhaps you might want to stop supporting a policy that regularly gets them kicked out of womens bathrooms. > [@YWTF](#): > > And also notice BB is implying it’s somehow wrong for women to ring the alarm when they see an apparent men, because of the possibility they might be unfairly targeting a female. Kind of completely contradicts what BB said to @monstro earlier about not judging her for…raising an alarm when confronted with an apparent man. So which is it? I stand by what I said before to monstro. > [@YWTF](#): > > So what? This is a red herring. Why does it matter how they present now? I promise you Danielle is still coded as a man by 95% seeing her and that’s what we are talking about. A few months on estrogen doesn’t eliminate male phenotype. Not a red herring at all. You made a claim about me that was incorrect. I corrected the record. Thats all. And I’ll note that you avoided answering the question about transmen yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4037 "2020-09-24T14:16:20Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > What about Alex Drummond, who proudly wears her beard? …what about Alma Torres, who proudly wears her beard? > **[Woman with a beard says ditching shaving is the best thing she's ever done](https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/21/woman-whose-hormone-condition-made-grow-beard-says-ditching-shaving-best-thing-shes-ever-done-13157518/)** > > Alma has PCOS, which causes excessive hair growth. > [@filmore](#): > > And stepping away from whether other transwomen shaved their beard, do you think having a beard is aligned with living as a woman? Do you think Alma’s decision not to shave her beard is aligned with living as a women? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4038 "2020-09-24T14:20:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you think Alma’s decision not to shave her beard is aligned with living as a women? She has a physical disorder that causes her to grow excess facial hair. Her organs are female. Her chromosomes are XX. She is female. Ergo she is a woman. This. Is. Not. That. Hard. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4039 "2020-09-24T14:25:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > She has a physical disorder that causes her to grow excess facial hair. Her organs are female. Her chromosomes are XX. She is female. Ergo she is a woman. …so a beard isn’t an inherent part of one’s gender identity? You can have a beard and be aligned with living as a women? That’s good to know then. That would appear to answer filmore’s question about Alex Drummond. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4040 "2020-09-24T14:26:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what about Alma Torres, who proudly wears her beard? Alma is a woman because she meets the classical definition of a woman: an adult female (where female is also defined by the classical definition). But regardless, having a beard is not a typical feminine trait. Alma having a beard does not change the fact that she is an adult female, but her having a beard does not mean that beards are a typical female trait. I would say it’s similar for a man who wears a dress, in that wearing a dress is not a typical trait for men. Do you think having a beard is aligned with “living as a woman”, especially when it’s a genetically XY person making a statement that they are committed to living as a woman? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4041 "2020-09-24T14:33:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so a beard isn’t an inherent part of one’s gender identity? You can have a beard and be aligned with living as a women? Alex is a male who says they are a woman. Alma is a woman who everyone knows is a woman. She could be dressed up like a lumberjack with a five foot beard. As long as she is in a female body, she doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone. She’s a woman. It is not crazy to hold a person in a male body to a different standard. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4042 "2020-09-24T14:34:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t equate them with men. Actually you are doing that implicitly. Are women sometimes mistaken for men? Of course. These are women whose physical features combined with their personal aesthetic makes it difficult to code them as female. Same-sex attraction has nothing to do with this. “Butch lesbians” don’t uniformly look a certain way. They shouldn’t be spoken about as if they are a unique species. Non-lesbians are mistaken for men too. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4043 "2020-09-24T14:36:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, so you don’t think any medical questions or interviews are needed. A declaration is enough. **That takes us back in circle to the problem of a simple declaration being enough in and of itself.** …no that doesn’t “take us back in circle to the problem.” Because you haven’t been able to articulate a problem. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So what subjective measures are reasonable then? “Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” is what I would describe as a subjective measure. Its not a matter of “avoiding committing myself” to anything. Its just in reality you can’t decide whether or not “someone is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” unless you are sitting in the jury having listened to all the facts in the case and you are aware of the judges instructions. And I’ve already provided an example. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4044 "2020-09-24T14:39:05Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Alma is a woman who everyone knows is a woman. She could be dressed up like a lumberjack with a five foot beard. As long as she is in a female body, she doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone. She’s a woman. This is a critical difference. An genetically XY person will generally look like a man and a genetically XX person will generally look like a woman regardless of superficial characteristics like how they style their hair or what clothes they wear. A beard on an XY person is going to strongly present as a man because the person will likely have many other biological markers for a man, such as bone structure, fat distribution, body shape, etc. A beard on an XX person is not going to hide the fact that the person is genetically XX, because that person will have other body characteristics that go along with XX. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4045 "2020-09-24T14:41:07Z")
Gender ideologues need to get their messaging straight. If I’m supposed to believe that the majority of transwomen are stuck in bodies that they hate, then I expect the majority of transwomen to significantly modify their bodies so that they conform to the conventional ciswoman’s body. Which would include getting rid of the visible clues that they have testosterone coursing through their blood streams. If the majority of transwomen are not stuck in bodies that they hate and they just want social permission to wear feminine clothing, then there’s no reason they should be entitled to “female” or spots reserved for females. The solution for these transwomen is for men to make _their_ spaces safer and less violent so that _all_ feminine males (regardless of gender identity) can piss and pee and change without being afraid. Ciswomen should not be expected to be the sole savior for all misfit males. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=201) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=203)