# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 205
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4086 "2020-09-24T21:06:42Z")
Furthermore, _we weren’t fucking talking about restrooms_. Stop trying to dodge. We were talking about “living as a woman” to establish bonafides for a transwoman. I think most ciswomen have an idea of what this means, and the idea is 100% incompatible with the concept that you seem to have in your head. Living with a penis, a beard, a testosterone is not “living as a woman” to most ciswomen. It might be going by feminine pronouns, wearing feminine clothing, taking HRT, and getting some plastic surgery… In other words, it’s _doing something besides just fucking existing._ ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4087 "2020-09-24T21:10:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you encountered Alma and Alex in a women’s bathroom: without a genital inspection which one would you kick out? Neither. It’s pretty clear that Alex is transgender and Alma is genetically XX. But I think Alex is being disrespectful to the ciswomen in the bathroom since his full beard is a genetically XY, testosterone-enabled male beard and not the sparse, light facial hair found on genetically XX people. Visually, I think someone like Alex looks like a man in a dress and Alma looks like a woman with facial hair. But I can deduce from a variety of clues that Alex is likely transgender and not a man who pulled on a dress to sneak a peek in the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4088 "2020-09-24T21:22:29Z")
Another reason why Alma doesn’t bother me none. Hirsute ciswomen have always existed, but they’ve always be a super tiny minority of womanhood. For biological reasons, obviously. I just can’t see women like Alma ever being a frequent occurrence. Not just because beards are coded as masculine, but because beards are damn-near impossible for ciswomen to grow. So even if she wasn’t obviously female, her presence in a women’s space would not be a threat to the safety and security of the space. She’s a “one-off” that 99.9% of women will never encounter. If we encourage bearded males to use the women’s restroom, then bearded males in women’s spaces will be normalized. And maybe this wouldn’t be a bad thing if it weren’t for the existence of predatory men who also have beards, but we know predatory men with beards are plentiful and would love to come into women’s spaces with impunity. So a woman who goes into a restroom will have to decide if the bearded male hovering by the sinks is a fellow woman or a predator looking for prey. They won’t have to do that with Alma because Alma is an obvious woman. But they will have to do that with a male who thinks their pink scarf is enough to mark them as a woman. And they will have to hide their fear because if the bearded male with the pink scarf sees any sign of negativity, their gender affirmation will be denied them and the sky will come crashing down. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4089 "2020-09-24T21:35:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but how they appear influences how they will be treated in a bathroom. Without a genital inspection Alma is going to get challenged in the bathroom, probably every single time. Are you okay with that? IS she challenged every time she enters a bathroom? I imagine maybe sometimes, but then it’s her choice not to shave. We’d have to ask her, I suppose. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …don’t throw this back at me. This isn’t about me. My position is clear. People should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with. Why bother to have gender-identity-specific bathrooms? What’s the point? And what do you do about the emerging genders that aren’t “identify as man” and “identify as woman”? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4090 "2020-09-24T21:49:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Why bother to have gender-identity-specific bathrooms? What’s the point? And what do you do about the emerging genders that aren’t “identify as man” and “identify as woman”? I’d like to know this too. It’s like having bathrooms for introverts and extroverts (one has total privacy, and a social convention of no conversation, the other features double stalls and comfy chairs so you can have a chat while/after going about your business). If you’re gonna reduce the sexes to personality traits, why have separate bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons? Why bother to track the gender pay gap or representation of women in parliament? This is where I see gender ideology ultimately heading, and I don’t like it at all. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4091 "2020-09-24T21:51:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but how they appear influences how they will be treated in a bathroom. Without a genital inspection Alma is going to get challenged in the bathroom, probably every single time. Are you okay with that? You have no way of knowing this. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4092 "2020-09-25T00:50:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t support bathroom laws. Which I’ve said eleventy-billion times already. Please do keep up. …do you really not see the irony of accusing me of being in an echo chamber? You and a handful of other posters have been posting multiple times a day in this thread, seven days a week, for _months_. You keep repeating the same talking points over and over again, you all agree with each other, and the only time it stops being an echo chamber is when one of the many people that disagrees with you tags into the thread to have their say. And it is always only one or two posters at a time that come in to disagree with you, because arguing with a group of people in an echo chamber is _exhausting_. > [@monstro](#): > > In other words, it’s _doing something besides just fucking existing._ “Just allowing them to exist” would be one of the things that trangender people would want you to allow them to do. But you can’t even give them that. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4093 "2020-09-25T01:02:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “Just allowing them to exist” would be one of the things that trangender people would want you to allow them to do. But you can’t even give them that. Are you suggesting I want to _kill_ transgender people? Because I don’t know what else you could possibly mean. Since you can’t seem to comprehend anything that isn’t a three-word slogan, I’ll spell it out for you as pithily as possible: **I want transgender people to have the same rights that I have and nothing more. I don’t want dude-looking males demanding access to women’s spaces, and I’m sick of men like you telling me I should let them in.** ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4094 "2020-09-25T01:09:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are you suggesting I want to _kill_ transgender people? …holy fucking shit. No. No I am not suggesting you want to kill transgender people. Not at all. That was not my suggestion. I did not suggest that. No way in fucking hell did I suggest that. I’m gonna walk away from the thread now. Time for someone else to tag in for a few days. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4095 "2020-09-25T01:11:03Z")
I’m glad you’re walking away. You keep saying stupid shit. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4096 "2020-09-25T01:11:05Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > They have female plumbing and therefore need access to toilets that accommodate the biological needs unique to females. Wait, what? Women and men (er, males and females?) need different toilets to accommodate different biological needs? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4097 "2020-09-25T02:00:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So I don’t think RBG would be on your side of this discussion. Well, [here’s](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/590/17-1618/#tab-opinion-4261583) what the majority opinion that RBG concurred with in Harris said about a transgender woman who identifies as a woman and uses “she/her” pronouns: > [@](#): > > In her sixth year with the company, Ms. Stephens wrote a letter to her employer […] And here’s what you just said about a transgender woman who identifies as a woman and uses “she/her” pronouns: > [@monstro](#): > > Alex is a male who says they are a woman. ISTM it’s sheer wishful thinking on your part to imagine that RBG would be supporting you in deliberately misgendering transgender individuals and implying that their transgender identity is a delusion or a lie. > [@monstro](#): > > We’re both in support of trans rights. We’re just looking at rights very differently. I don’t think you can make a persuasive case that you’re actually “in support of trans rights” in any meaningful way, when you insist on deliberately and gratuitously using transphobic rhetoric such as misgendering. Yes, we could have mutually respectful discussions about how laws and policies should take into account differences between transgender and cisgender people, and how protections on the basis of sex should be reconciled with protections on the basis of gender identity. Contrary to your reiterated groundless assertions, I’m not in fact demanding that everybody of good will must automatically agree with all my positions on all these issues. But we can’t have respectful discussions if you refuse to speak respectfully about transgender individuals. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4098 "2020-09-25T02:00:52Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Women and men (er, males and females?) need different toilets to accommodate different biological needs? I’m going to the same article I posted before. Look at the photo at the top. > **[The Long Lines for Women’s Bathrooms Could Be Eliminated. Why Haven’t They Been?](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/01/women-men-bathroom-lines-wait/580993/)** > > It’s been more than 30 years since states started trying to achieve “potty parity,” but many queues are still unequal. Why, pray tell, are women’s restroom lines at public events almost always three times as long as men’s lines? Is it because we can’t just pull out of our urethras and pee into a urinal trough and then be done licketysplit? Could it be because at any given moment, a certain percentage of women are dealing with periods that require extra time is spent on pads, cups, tampons, and other bloody stuff? Women can’t use urinals to do their businesses; they need toilets in a way most men don’t because they have different needs. In the vast majority of cases, transmen have the same needs that women have. So yes because of this biological reality, it makes sense that toilets reserved for people with this reality would be availability to them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4099 "2020-09-25T02:16:39Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Why, pray tell, are women’s restroom lines at public events almost always three times as long as men’s lines? It turns out that one major factor, in addition to stall-vs-urinal efficiency, may be men’s greater irresponsibility about washing their hands after using the restroom: [Men wash their hands much less often than women](https://kslnewsradio.com/1923850/handwashing-covid19/) In fact, anecdotal evidence suggests that the heightened consciousness levels about handwashing in the current pandemic may be [lengthening the lines](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/us/women-men-hand-washing-coronavirus.html) for the [men’s room](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/coronavirus-concerns-stir-debate-over-mens-handwashing-222032059.html): > [@](#): > > Sheona Gillespie, a sales and marketing manager in Düsseldorf, Germany, said she saw something new at a soccer match just two weeks ago: a wait for the men’s bathroom. […] > > Men she spoke to, including her husband, attributed the wait to the sinks, not the urinals. > [@](#): > > […] men are taking to Twitter to joke about the long lines and full sinks they’re seeing — many, troublingly, for the first time. > > “For once lines in men’s restrooms, as coronavirus makes men wash their hands for the first time,” a writer for the _Daily Show_ tweeted. “Hmm didn’t realize until coronavirus how shocking it is to walk into a public men’s room and see all the sinks actually being used,” another comedian added. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4100 "2020-09-25T02:24:28Z")
Here is an article from a transman about men’s restrooms. Gives a little insight why the women’s restroom might frequently be a preferred option for transmen, particularly ones that doesn’t pass and/or desire more hygienic accommodations. > **[A Trans Guy on Adjusting to Men's Bathroom Culture](https://www.advocate.com/books/2019/9/24/trans-guy-adjusting-mens-bathroom-culture)** > > Jackson Bird discusses furtive glances and stall phobia in an exclusive excerpt from his new memoir, Sorted: Growing Up, Coming Out, and Finding My Place. > There _are_ tools that enable transmasculine people to pee standing up prior to having lower surgery, some of which are realistic enough for undetected use at public urinals. I’ve tried a few with varying success. They come in handy for camping, and one time when a fellow trans guy and I were drunkenly hanging out on the steps of some Wall Street building after last call, I used one to pee on a statue. But Occu-pee Wall Street aside, I generally prefer not to have to carry equipment on me all day. > > So it’s stall life for me, which can really stink sometimes. I mean, literally. The vast majority of cisgender men only ever use the stall to take a dump. I spend so much of my time outside occupied restroom stalls that I’ve considered penning an essay series entitled, “Waiting for the Cis Men to Stop Pooping: The Life and Times of a Trans Man.” > > Besides the wait times and my nerves about using the Wiz Palace alongside my friends, there is also the issue of safety. I’m well aware that my use of the stall and risk of not being read as male puts me in danger of getting harassed by a fellow restroom-goer, or even reported by one to nearby authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4101 "2020-09-25T02:31:28Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Here is an article from a transman about men’s restrooms. Gives a little insight why the women’s restroom might frequently be a preferred option for transmen It might. But somewhat confusingly, your quoted excerpt omitted all the author’s subsequent explanation of why he doesn’t in fact prefer to use the women’s restroom: > [@](#): > > Before I started testosterone, I was rarely read as male, so I continued using the women’s restroom even after I had come out to some people as a man. However, after several instances in a row of women entering the restroom while I was washing my hands, stepping back out to check the sign, and then reentering furtively, narrowing their eyes at me, I decided it was time to switch to the men’s room. I was petrified of being found out and beat up in there, but I’d rather face my own fears than make other people uncomfortable. and it turned out to be fine. Here’s some more helpful perspective on restroom regulations from that transgender man’s article: > [@](#): > > Most of the laws, after all, claim a transphobic “save our wives and children from predatory ‘men in dresses’” argument. This is messed up for so many reasons. First, it perpetuates the myth that trans women are just cross-dressing men and not the real women that they are, and further, that they dress as women with the sole purpose of tricking cisgender people so they can assault them. It’s absolute crap. > > Even if some people want to claim that they’re not worried about actual trans people, they’re just worried about someone taking advantage of being able to pretend to be trans in order to assault someone in the restroom . . . since when would a law stop someone who’s already intent on breaking it? We shouldn’t have to remove protections from an already marginalized class based on the hypothetical idea that someone outside of that class might abuse the system. > > The whole “save our wives and children” line of defense also usually fails to recognize that transgender men exist too. The same law that’s trying to keep trans women out of women’s rooms is forcing trans men, some of whom are burly dudes with impressive beards, _into_ women’s rooms. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4102 "2020-09-25T02:38:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It might. But somewhat confusingly, your quoted excerpt omitted all the author’s subsequent explanation of why he doesn’t in fact prefer to use the women’s restroom: Well, yes. That’s why I said might. This transmen was respectful of women’s spaces by being self-aware enough to understand that by changing his phenotype into a more masculine one, he was inciting fear in the women’s restroom. So he took that as a sign that using the men’s room was the best path forward. He didn’t just stay in the ladies and demand these bitches just suck it up, and he also didn’t immediately start using the men’s room with pre-conceived expectations of acceptance either. He wanted until he could blend in with the user population. A lot of transmen do not pass as men. Either because they don’t take T or because T isn’t enough to masculinize their appearance. This population probably won’t be as motivated to use the men’s room as transmen who can pass, and I don’t see this as an issue at all. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4103 "2020-09-25T02:44:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Here’s some more helpful perspective on restroom regulations from that transgender man’s article: So here’s a wild and crazy suggestion that has been rejected multiple times in this thread for no good reason. Why not turn the men’s room into gender neutral territory while letting females have female-exclusive space? Seems like a fair compromise between women’s rights and gender affirmation rights. So why again is it rejected? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4104 "2020-09-25T02:51:03Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > This transmen was respectful of women’s spaces by being self-aware enough to understand that by changing his phenotype into a more masculine one, he was inciting fear in the women’s restroom. So he took that as a sign that using the men’s room was the best path forward. […] He wanted until he could blend in with the user population. > > A lot of transmen do not pass as men. Either because they don’t take T or because T isn’t enough to masculinize their appearance. This population probably won’t be as motivated to use the men’s room as transmen who can pass, and I don’t see this as an issue at all. I see. So when you said > [@YWTF](#): > > In the vast majority of cases, transmen have the same needs that women have. So yes because of this biological reality, it makes sense that toilets reserved for people with this reality would be availability to them. what you meant was that women’s restrooms should be available not to transgender men in general, but specifically to transgender men who can “blend in with the user population” in women’s restrooms because they “do not pass as men”? We keep on coming back to the same problem that all these supposedly straightfoward proposed rules about designating men’s and women’s spaces based on simple biological sex criteria seem to have. Namely, in order to work successfully when implemented in real life, they rely heavily on unquantifiable and subjective perceptions of gender conformity, rather than on biological sex per se. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4105 "2020-09-25T03:05:32Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Why not turn the men’s room into gender neutral territory while letting females have female-exclusive space? Seems like a fair compromise between women’s rights and gender affirmation rights. So why again is it rejected? I really don’t want women in the men’s room. If there’s something wrong with the women’s room or there’s an unreasonably long line, sure, I’m not so unreasonable that I won’t make an exception due to circumstances. But I’m not comfortable taking a leak in front of women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=204) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=206)