# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 214
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4266 "2020-09-28T15:28:50Z")
Then you presumably agree with me that, in some circumstances, cis can be a useful and even necessary term. Unless you think that I’m unique and there are no others who see things like I do. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4267 "2020-09-28T15:30:34Z")
I believe I did stipulate so just a few posts above. I also said that “cis” has found its way into conversations outside the narrow context in which I find it useful. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4268 "2020-09-28T15:31:15Z")
That context includes much of this thread. I’ve used “cis” many times because that concept was necessary and useful for the specific times that I used it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4269 "2020-09-28T15:32:08Z")
Fine. Don’t let me catch you using it outside this thread or context. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4270 "2020-09-28T15:41:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m a trans ally, and this is how I see it. Pretty much all the trans people and allies I’ve spoken to see it like this. Maybe if I know that someone is hostile to the concept of using “cis” and doesn’t believe that trans women are women, then I know what they’re trying to say if they say “man” or “woman”. But if I don’t know, then they could be just like me – and therefore “cis” or “trans” is necessary to convey information. Taking a step back; Is use of “cis” necessary to convey support of trans people? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4271 "2020-09-28T15:43:03Z")
I wouldn’t be able to make such a judgment based on so little information. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4272 "2020-09-28T15:50:11Z")
Say you also knew that I supported TWAW, except in sports. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4273 "2020-09-28T15:51:59Z")
Then no, I don’t think use of a single term has that level of importance. Especially since there are other ways of saying the same thing (gender identity matching sex assigned at birth) – I just think “cis” is a clear and concise way to do so. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4274 "2020-09-28T15:56:51Z")
So “Men’s League” or “Women’s League” is sufficiently explanatory with respect to biological gender in context of sports and who is meant to participate in which league based on biological gender criteria? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4275 "2020-09-28T16:00:51Z")
In general, yes, but I think there are things to discuss on the margins. I think some (but not all) trans women can probably compete in women’s sports without impacting fairness or safety, in my understanding of the facts. But it’s not an easy challenge to balance all this with trans people’s (and especially trans kids’) interests in playing sports, and concern about this is perfectly reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4276 "2020-09-28T16:06:01Z")
Right. We’ve had extensive discussions about this in this thread and I don’t want to rehash the subject. I’m just trying to establish what, in your opinion/understanding, falls within acceptable margins of being a trans ally. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4277 "2020-09-28T16:20:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Girls who go around bragging they aren’t like other girls are stupid. We shouldn’t be validating these kind of people. We should be telling them to STFU. Seconded. The widespread non-binary/57 genders thing has more than a whiff of not-like-other-girlsness to it. The way to fight gender stereotypes is to say and show that women _can_ do X and men _can_ do Y. Saying “I do X because/so I’m not a woman” just reinforces them for everyone else and encourages medicalisation of gender non-conformity. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4278 "2020-09-28T16:29:04Z")
Now we’ve got some guys back in the thread: @iiandyiiii and @QuickSilver and any other men reading, if you were going to prison in California would you rather do your time in a men’s or women’s jail? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4279 "2020-09-28T16:34:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The vast majority of trans people and trans allies do not see “man” or “woman” as conveying any information about gender identity. I’m confused about this statement. Seems to totally undermine the slogan of TWAW if “woman” doesn’t denote gender to the trans community. Kind of makes all the language policing for naught. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4280 "2020-09-28T16:36:54Z")
Not sure where you’re going with this but okay, I’ll bight. Women’s because even as a hetero-male with a low target victim profile I’d want to ensure a high level of personal safety, and I’ve never been a threat to women so I feel highly confident I would not be seen as a threat in a women’s institution. That said, I could never bring myself to pretend to be trans in order to achieve that objective. Couldn’t pull it off from a standpoint of conscience. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4281 "2020-09-28T16:39:24Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I’m confused about this statement. Seems to totally undermine the slogan of TWAW if “woman” doesn’t denote gender to the trans community. Kind of makes all the language policing for naught. Okay, I’ll rephrase – from this perspective, “man” or “woman” doesn’t convey any information about whether someone is cis or trans. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4282 "2020-09-28T16:43:22Z")
Personally, I’ve seen trans women in public restrooms all the time, for the past 20,25 years at least. I worked with lots of people in the design industry. I don’t look too closely at the other women in restrooms so there are probably more than the ones I noticed. But I think she’s right and they mostly pass because people don’t look too close, unless the person is acting pervy. And I’ve never seen a trans women act pervy. Usually they just want to come in, pee and get out like everyone else. It’s my understanding that the “bathroom bill” controversies started on college campuses, where people KNEW that certain people were trans, and starting harassing them for doing what trans people have always done. As for the prison issue, I think they should work on extending those safety privileges to ALL prisoners, because they are all at risk for assault and I feel those risks are pervasive and well-known enough to constitute cruel and unusual punishment. So I’m not going to fault the prison system for trying to keep trans prisoners safe. Especially after reading stories like this one. > **[Man sentenced to death for killing transgender cellmate](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/man-sentenced-death-killing-transgender-cellmate-n1097161)** > > Miguel Crespo, 48, was housed with Carmen Guerrero for just eight hours before he bound, gagged, tortured and murdered her in their shared cell. But I think we need prison reforms to keep everyone safe. If we had those then people wouldn’t have to consider pretending to be trans in order to avoid being raped and murdered. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4283 "2020-09-28T16:44:41Z")
Please don’t bash the messenger. I’m just sharing what I’ve picked up from social media chatter. There are some people (I’m assuming they are men, but I don’t know) who think that male prisoners may identify as women not for nefarious or self-preserving reasons, but as a mechanism to process the trauma of prison rape. Just like prisoners might become more flexible in their sexual identity while imprisoned, the same could happen while in prison. I don’t know what I think about this hypothesis, but it is true that trans folks often have a narrative of sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4284 "2020-09-28T16:47:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I’ll rephrase – from this perspective, “man” or “woman” doesn’t convey any information about whether someone is cis or trans. It’s not like trying to identify ethnicity/race. Someone is either trans or they are not. So either “woman” or “trans-woman”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4285 "2020-09-28T16:58:08Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Personally, I’ve seen trans women in public restrooms all the time, for the past 20,25 years at least. I worked with lots of people in the design industry. I’m assuming all of those trans women are female-passing or sufficiently female-passing to not raise eyebrows, correct? If I saw a typical male dressed exactly like how I typically dress standing in the women’s restroom, I would notice that person. They could identify as a woman, but their presentation would not scream “woman”. It would scream “man”. I wouldn’t scream. I wouldn’t kick them out. But I would be thinking to myself, “OK, that dude has some nerve coming up in here. I hope he doesn’t make himself too comfortable.” I have no doubt in my mind that transwomen have been using women’s spaces for millions of years. My beef isn’t with those folks. It’s males who think “woman” is a personality trait that they can cram themselves while retaining most if not all of their mannish-ness. These males aren’t blending in. They are subverting and disrupting and having their cake and eating it too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=213) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=215)