# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 220
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4386 "2020-10-02T00:10:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m unconvinced that this tells us anything about misogyny in the trans community or among trans activists (beyond that yes, it probably exists in greater than zero trans people and activists). Since Russian trolls is on your list of likely explanations for the misogynistic wrath directed at JKR, I’m almost certain this means nothing is going to convince you that misogyny is a problem in the trans community. Truly, it’s like a Trump supporter screaming fake news when his failures are enumerated. This is denial. [Listen to what detransitioners say.](https://medium.com/@danapham.au/common-themes-of-the-detransition-phenomenon-6d6c05fd0fcb) See the [casual](https://www.lifesitenews.com/mobile/news/i-enjoyed-it-trans-martial-arts-fighter-tweets-bliss-over-hurting-women) and [frequent](https://unherd.com/2019/07/why-has-the-lgbt-community-turned-against-lesbians/) references of violence towards women coming from the community. Or better yet, [think about the odiousness of an oppressed demographic group being denied the right to self-definition](https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-transwomen-deserve-respect-but-they-arent-women/wcm/acec9953-469f-4808-9df4-7aa95a7812d6/amp/). See the attack on the Vancouver rape shelter as part of a larger fact pattern. Wake up please. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4387 "2020-10-02T00:18:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not by the data I’ve seen, at least in the US. IIRC, white men are one of the few demographics that still approves of Trump. What’s that got to do with your previous statement? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4388 "2020-10-02T00:18:14Z")
All of these things are indeed evidence of widespread misogyny. Totally agreed there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4389 "2020-10-02T00:23:40Z")
What are you saying here? That I should accept that trans people are more misogynist than other groups because… links to tweets? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4390 "2020-10-02T00:30:28Z")
I’m saying the trans community is every bit as misogynistic as the rest of society and some of the policies are even more so to the extent that even Trump supporters don’t argue that men should have access to women’s sports and personal spaces. What are you even arguing about when cites have been provided and you’ve ‘totally agreed’ with most of them? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4391 "2020-10-02T00:32:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m saying the trans community is every bit as misogynistic as the rest of society and some of the policies are even more so to the extent that even Trump supporters don’t argue that men should have access to women’s sports and personal spaces. I don’t believe this case has been made about the group of millions of individuals that are trans. > [@](#): > > What are you even arguing about when cites have been provided and you’ve ‘totally agreed’ with most of them? Cites for what? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4392 "2020-10-02T00:42:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe this case has been made about the group of millions of individuals that are trans. We aren’t talking about every single individual within the trans population. We are talking about misogyny being a problem within the community. Not every white person is racist, but we all know that racism is still a problem among whites as a group. Not every black person is homophobic, but we shouldn’t deny it’s an issue in the community. It’s really not that difficult to understand the argument we’re making. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4393 "2020-10-02T00:43:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe this case has been made about the group of millions of individuals that are trans. I should have said trans activist community for better clarity. Not just trans people as may be inferred. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4394 "2020-10-02T00:44:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cites for what? Cites for widespread misogyny within the trans community. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4395 "2020-10-02T00:45:01Z")
Some trans people are misogynistic. Is that all you’re saying? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4396 "2020-10-02T00:47:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cites for what? Are you taking the piss?: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All of these things are indeed evidence of widespread misogyny. Totally agreed there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4397 "2020-10-02T00:49:35Z")
Yes, widespread misogyny (in American and even Earth society). But to accept that the trans community has widespread misogyny, akin to racism in the white community, I’d have to see real data, like scientific polling or similar. Tweets and opinion articles and even multiple individual incidents don’t tell us anything about the views of a large group of millions of people. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4398 "2020-10-02T01:03:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … akin to racism in the white community, … or the Chinese community, right? … or the Arabic community, right? … or the Hindu community, right? … or the African communities, right? You’re telling me that looking at every cross section of every population on this planet, the trans population is somehow more immune from the same set of prejudices we see reflected in all societies around the world? I think your argument is far less credible than mine and that you need to provide a cite that isn’t just people you happen to know. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4399 "2020-10-02T01:08:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > … or the Chinese community, right? > … or the Arabic community, right? > … or the Hindu community, right? > … or the African communities, right? > > You’re telling me that looking at every cross section of every population on this planet, the trans population is somehow more immune from the same set of prejudices we see reflected in all societies around the world? > > I think your argument is far less credible than mine and that you need to provide a cite that isn’t just people you happen to know. Huh? Are you just saying “trans people are human, and can have all the same sort of flaws that all humans can have”? I agree with that. Or are you saying “the attacks on JKR reveal a serious and widespread problem of misogyny within the trans community, beyond the expected levels of misogyny that exist in every group”? If it’s the latter, then I remain unconvinced. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4400 "2020-10-02T01:18:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Are you just saying “trans people are human, and can have all the same sort of flaws that all humans can have”? I agree with that. Or are you saying “the attacks on JKR reveal a serious and widespread problem of misogyny within the trans community, beyond the expected levels of misogyny that exist in every group”? If it’s the latter, then I remain unconvinced. YASSS. That’s all any of us have been saying. Finally. And now I’m going to need you to point to where I or anyone else has said anything about “more”. Because I’m prepared to point to where you implied that it was less so, based on your personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4401 "2020-10-02T01:26:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Misogyny is an utterly massive problem in our society. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you just saying “trans people are human, and can have all the same sort of flaws that all humans can have”? I agree with that. Might a reasonable conclusion then be that misogyny is therefore as massive a problem in the trans community as well? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4402 "2020-10-02T01:29:51Z")
A reasonable hypothesis, perhaps. And with some real data, perhaps a reasonable conclusion. But tweets, opinion articles, and some horrible individual incidents don’t tell us anything. Glad we can agree that trans people are human, and can have flaws. I didn’t think this was ever in dispute, but I’ll take agreement where I can get it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4403 "2020-10-02T01:35:26Z")
Yeah… it sounds more like you’re in agreement with me. Which is okay, really. No shame in it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4404 "2020-10-02T01:39:26Z")
If you’re declaring victory, then congratulations on a well declared victory! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4405 "2020-10-02T05:48:15Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Because it’s like Pepsi and Coke. When Pepsi set up the blind taste test campaign, they had a small share of the market compared to Coke. When they set up the test tastes, they created the illusion that Pepsi and Coke were neck and neck in sales. It was great for Pepsi’s market share. Same deal with the cis- prefix. By trying to force everyone to say cisman and ciswoman, as opposed to trans man and trans woman, it makes the trans population seem larger and more important than it actually is. They’re increasing their market share of public consciousness. I remember back when similar complaints were frequently uttered against gay people “forcing” us all to talk about “opposite-sex couples” and “opposite-sex relationships” in contrast to bizarre neologisms like “same-sex couples” and “same-sex relationships”. There was a fair bit of resentment expressed against such usage as some kind of selfish ploy to make the gay population seem larger and more important than it actually was. The complainers argued that we ought to be speaking instead of “couples and same-sex couples”, “spouses and same-sex spouses”, etc., instead of slapping a superfluous prefix like “straight” or “opposite-sex” on terms that automatically default to implying “opposite-sex” anyway. It’s assumed that the conventional “normal” majority gets to be the default, and the “abnormal” minority gets a particularizing label. Those objections don’t hold up too well these days. I use terminology like “cisgender women and transgender women” instead of “women and transgender women” for the same reason that I use terminology like “straight couples and gay couples” rather than “couples and gay couples”. Even though straight couples, or straight spouses, etc., still make up the overwhelming majority of those categories, and plenty of straight people have been likewise pretty damn irritated at being “forced” to put a particularizing label for themselves on a term that they felt already belonged to them by default. I don’t think you’re going to be able to turn back the language clock by insisting that the unmodified labels “man” and “woman” belong by rights only to cisgender people, whereas transgender people can only use them with the “trans” prefix. Any more than you can hope to persuade most people today that unmodified terms like “spouses” and “marriage” belong by rights only to straight people, whereas gay people can only use them with the “gay” or “same-sex” prefix. You can’t reverse linguistic evolution by accusing minority groups of having wilfully engineered it to “increase their market share of public consciousness” (!). Zooming back out, ISTM that people in general have always had a hard time adjusting the usage of a standard term to include a group that wasn’t formerly considered eligible for it. And one of the routine phases of such adjustment has been to insist on a particularizing label to distinguish the newly included group. So we’ve had “doctors and lady doctors”, “undergraduates and co-eds”, “marriage and gay marriage”, and now “women and transgender women”, “men and transgender men”. But in time, we tend to end up with a shared category plus two particularizing labels: “male and female doctors”, “male and female undergraduates”, “opposite-sex and same-sex marriage”, “cisgender and transgender women”, “cisgender and transgender men”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=219) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=221)