# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 223
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4446 "2020-10-03T10:51:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That seems to me like a huge jump to a conclusion. When I see transgender-rights advocates arguing that biological sex is complex, not entirely binary, and not the same thing as gender identity, what I hear them saying is that biological sex is complex, not entirely binary, and not the same thing as gender identity. > > All of which claims are, AFAICT, true. And none of which is in any way equivalent to, or in any way implies that, “sex isn’t real”. They’re not all true. Sex is binary, there are only two sexes. Some people cannot be simply and cleanly classified into one or the other, but that doesn’t mean there is a third sex. Using the existence of intersex people to argue that men can be women is like using the existence of mixed race people to argue white people can be black. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Do you mean that “TRAs” are objecting to the very existence of such terms and their clinical use? Or simply that they don’t like people referring to, for instance, a transgender woman by the term “biological male” instead of “transgender woman”? I mean they don’t just dislike being referred to that way, they deny that it is correct to do so. They would object to your statement by saying “I’m female, therefore my anatomy is female”. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4447 "2020-10-03T11:42:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Trying to change the subject to garbled misunderstandings of things I didn’t say, rather than addressing the things I actually am saying, is not a useful argument strategy in the long run. @Kimstu, I could pull up all the posts of yours that defended calling women “menstruators” and “people with cervixes”, the casual turning of the word “woman” to meaninglessness drivel, and oh yeah, the end to female-only spaces. But it would take me hours pulling that all together and I don’t see the point of wasting my time like that. Just own up to the positions you’ve adamantly defended in this thread. No one has misunderstood you. We haven’t been debating against phantoms. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4448 "2020-10-03T11:43:44Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > @Kimstu, I could pull up all the posts of yours that defended calling women “menstruators” and “people with cervixes” She wasn’t doing that – she was calling people who menstruate “menstruators”, and people with cervixes “people with cervixes”. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4449 "2020-10-03T11:52:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She wasn’t doing that – she was calling people who menstruate “menstruators”, and people with cervixes “people with cervixes”. Yes she did this and she defended the act of doing so. This only supports my point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4450 "2020-10-03T12:08:11Z")
That’s a different point. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4451 "2020-10-03T12:11:57Z")
Calling women menstruators—against their repeated objections—is actually worse than defending those who use the term. So your point actually makes @Kimstu look worse than mine does. Nothing makes sense in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4452 "2020-10-03T12:19:13Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Calling women menstruators—against their repeated objections—is actually worse than defending those who use the term. I totally agree that calling women “menstruators” is awful and offensive. I would never do that, and neither did @Kimstu. There is an honest disagreement/misunderstanding here. Many women (cis and otherwise) do not menstruate. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4453 "2020-10-03T12:45:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I totally agree that calling women “menstruators” is awful and offensive. I would never do that, and neither did @Kimstu. Yes she did. Behold: > [@Kimstu](#): > > Example: It is not reductive or insulting to say something like “Menstruators need to devote significant amounts of time and resources to menstrual hygiene that non-menstruators do not.” Not misogynistic, not offensive. > > If J.K. Rowling in a moment of brain-fart had only managed to grasp that simple distinction, we might all have spared ourselves nearly four thousand posts’ worth of strife. Rather than respecting JKR and other women’s feelings about being referred to as a socially stigmatized biological function, @Kimstu condescendingly insists their offense is a product of “brain-farts” and that there is nothing wrong with women being labeled in this fashion. In my world, this is called defending the use of the word “menstruator” as a substitute for calling women women or females. In my world, this objectifying speech is an unacceptable tax that is being extracted from women by activists who espouse TWAW. In my world, this means that @Kimstu is wrong when she says women are not affected by transwomen identifying as women. We are hugely affected by this, and this can be inferred from her own posts. She should own up to this rather than act as though she’s the victim of misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4454 "2020-10-03T13:02:14Z")
Once again, she’s talking about a different (but largely overlapping) category of people. Not “women”, but “people who menstruate”. Two overlapping but different groups of people. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4455 "2020-10-03T13:18:19Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The point is that they are only attracted to women, biological women, and they are being told that makes them transphobes. So very well, they’ll be proud transphobes. The same way they proudly called themselves lesbians, also a term of disapproval and abuse. Exactly. Lesbians are being peppered with “transphobe” so much that they have claimed the slur like they’ve claimed other slurs. It takes a nuanced appraisal of what is happening in the community to get this, so I don’t blame people for only seeing this in 2D. But I’m siding with lesbians in this conflict. They spent decades fighting homophobes who tried to shame them out of their same-sex attraction, and they are experiencing it again, by gender ideologues. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4456 "2020-10-03T13:20:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Once again, she’s talking about a different (but largely overlapping) category of people. Not “women”, but “people who menstruate”. Two overlapping but different groups of people. “Menstruators” should never be used to refer to females who menstruate. It’s objectifying speech whether it’s used for all women or just those who bleed every month. The very fact that I’m having to explain this is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4457 "2020-10-03T13:46:52Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > “Menstruators” should never be used to refer to females who menstruate. It’s objectifying speech whether it’s used for all women or just those who bleed every month. I guess we’ll soon see prostate health notices which refer to “sperm ejaculators” when discussing who needs prostrate screening. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4458 "2020-10-03T13:48:15Z")
Okay, that’s slightly different (though I could swear we already had this specific argument). If someone’s trying to craft a message specifically for those individual persons who have menstrual cycles, whether for advertising or for medical purposes, then maybe “those who have menstrual cycles” or similar would be better. Presumably there’s a non-objectifying way to refer to those individuals, cis or trans or other, who have menstrual cycles, in an inclusive and accurate way. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4459 "2020-10-03T13:57:06Z")
Here’s a suggestion: Use the word “female”. And if people object to “female”, remind them that “female” does not refer to gender but to biological sex. The people who would object to “female” comprise less than 1% of the population. The people who object to “Menstruators” comprises a lot more than 1% of the population. It is only with trans issues that the majority’s feelings are being subjugated by the tiny minority’s. This really does need to stop. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4460 "2020-10-03T13:58:38Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I guess we’ll soon see prostate health notices which refer to “sperm ejaculatcors” when discussing who needs prostrate screening. Nah, I think men are safe from this. [See this signage recently tweeted by a LBGT organization.](https://twitter.com/lgbtcancermers/status/1195011978147840001a) The conclusion is clear. Men are worth saving; women not so much. I mean, it doesn’t even take an imagination at this point to see this. The writing is literally on the walls. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4461 "2020-10-03T14:01:15Z")
Your link doesn’t work for me. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4462 "2020-10-03T14:04:41Z")
> Try this one? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4463 "2020-10-03T14:09:03Z")
The differences in how men and women are being treated are just too big to ignore now. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4464 "2020-10-03T14:11:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, that’s slightly different (though I could swear we already had this specific argument). If someone’s trying to craft a message specifically for those individual persons who have menstrual cycles, whether for advertising or for medical purposes, then maybe “those who have menstrual cycles” or similar would be better. Presumably there’s a non-objectifying way to refer to those individuals, cis or trans or other, who have menstrual cycles, in an inclusive and accurate way. The sentence that @Kimstu came up with could have easily been written in a less dehumanizing way. That’s the beauty of language; we don’t have to restrict ourselves to terms that people find offensive. For some reason, this is well understood when it comes to the trans community, but folks act like women are undeserving of the same accommodation. This is a revision I proposed that is superior to @Kimstu’s sentence. She never came back to address it. > [@YWTF](#): > > - Significant amounts of time and resources go into managing menstruation; this is a burden that is exclusively carried by female people of child-bearing age. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4465 "2020-10-03T14:16:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The differences in how men and women are being treated are just too big to ignore now. The words “men” or “man” shows up three times in the span of a 3X5 poster. The disparity in the treatment of women and men’s health is bigger than the Gulf of Mexico. This is why I feel like this is purposeful trolling. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But I would rather be guilty of jumping to a reasonable but wrong conclusion, than be guilty of being played like a fool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=222) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=224)