# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 230
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4586 "2020-10-05T19:26:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > there’s certainly no end to people in the queer community taking slurs and using them as self-identifiers. See, for example, the word “queer.” Or ‘transphobe’. What’s the point of identifying as bisexual if you’ve never had non-hetero sex and never intend to? It either seems to be a way to make yourself look more interesting or else you’re gay and just haven’t admitted it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4587 "2020-10-05T19:52:06Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’m not really seeing the fundamental. difference between transwomen redefining the term women and straight women redefining queer. My whole point is that she’s not redefining anything. Almost every one of her supposedly “outre” demands are points of view that already exist in the queer community. > [@filmore](#): > > Here you are pointing out that YWTF doesn’t understand what it means to be queer, but how is that different from ciswomen pointing out that transwomen don’t understand what it means to be a woman? Well, the major difference would be between the generic and the specific. I’m not saying **YWTF** is ignorant of queer culture because she’s a straight woman. I’m saying that she’s ignorant of queer culture because of specific things she’s said that indicate she doesn’t know what major topics of conversation among queer people actually are. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4588 "2020-10-05T20:12:53Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What’s the point of identifying as bisexual if you’ve never had non-hetero sex and never intend to? It either seems to be a way to make yourself look more interesting or else you’re gay and just haven’t admitted it yet. I dunno, maybe I’m just projecting. I know I’d feel like a fraud if I identified as some kind of LGTB++ having had none of the associated struggles in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4589 "2020-10-05T20:13:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Or ‘transphobe’. There’s a pretty serious distinction here. When a homophobe calls a gay man “queer,” he’s saying, “You like to have sex with other men!” Which is factually true. When the gay man reclaims that word, he’s saying, "Yes, I do like to have sex with other men, and there’s nothing wrong with that. When a gender-critical feminist gets called a transphobe, what’s being said is, “You hate and discriminate against trans people.” By trying to “reclaim” the word by using it as a self descriptor, the gender-critical feminist is saying, “Yes, I do hate and discriminate against trans people, and there’s nothing wrong with that.” > [@](#): > > What’s the point of identifying as bisexual if you’ve never had non-hetero sex and never intend to? It either seems to be a way to make yourself look more interesting or else you’re gay and just haven’t admitted it yet. Because orientation isn’t behavior. A straight man doesn’t only become officially heterosexual when he successfully places his dick inside a vagina. A gay person living in Iran doesn’t stop being gay just because they decide it’s not worth the risk to their lives to have gay sex. A bisexual woman doesn’t stop being bisexual if they end up marrying their high school boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4590 "2020-10-05T20:20:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When a gender-critical feminist gets called a transphobe, what’s being said is, “You hate and discriminate against trans people.” By trying to “reclaim” the word by using it as a self descriptor, the gender-critical feminist is saying, “Yes, I do hate and discriminate against trans people, and there’s nothing wrong with that.” As @iiandyiiiii so loves to tell us, language evolves. When someone calls a gay man gay, they aren’t saying he’s ever so happy and cheerful. If being attracted to people on the basis of biological sex and not gender is transphobic, or not believing that trans women are women and trans men are men is transphobic, or talking about how trans rights might impact women’s rights is transphobic, then guess what? Transphobic no longer means someone who hates and discriminates against trans people, it means the things I just listed. And calling yourself transphobic says that those are your beliefs and there’s nothing wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4591 "2020-10-05T20:27:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When a gender-critical feminist gets called a transphobe, what’s being said is, “You hate and discriminate against trans people.” I’m not sure that’s the way that transphobe is always used though. Certainly it gets aimed at people who make statements like “sex is real” and other such non-hateful statements. In those cricumstances I can well imagine someone saying “well if that is what you consider a transphobe, then fine…I’ll call myself a transphobe and own it” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4592 "2020-10-05T20:30:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I dunno, maybe I’m just projecting. I know I’d feel like a fraud if I identified as some kind of LGTB++ having had none of the associated struggles in my life. How much struggle is a person required to experience before they can identify as queer? I’ve personally been super lucky in that regard - I’ve never been physically assaulted for my sexuality. I’ve never been fired from a job, or kicked out of my home. Nobody in my family disowned me when I came out. None of my friends abandoned me. I’ve only once ever been called a gay slur by someone who knew my sexuality and was expressly trying to attack me over it. (I have been called lots of gay slurs by the sort of people who use gay slurs as generic insults, but it’s not exactly the same thing.) Does that mean I’m not queer? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4593 "2020-10-05T20:34:54Z")
I hope this isn’t too off-topic, but I’m curious how you feel about asexuals identifying as “queer”, @Miller. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4594 "2020-10-05T20:37:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How much struggle is a person required to experience before they can identify as queer? I’ve personally been super lucky in that regard - I’ve never been physically assaulted for my sexuality. I’ve never been fired from a job, or kicked out of my home. Nobody in my family disowned me when I came out. None of my friends abandoned me. I’ve only once ever been called a gay slur by someone who knew my sexuality and was expressly trying to attack me over it. (I have been called lots of gay slurs by the sort of people who use gay slurs as generic insults, but it’s not exactly the same thing.) > > Does that mean I’m not queer? If your life would not have been noticeably different if you were straight, that would be my bar. I’ve known people who basically pretended to be bi for attention, so maybe that makes me a bit cynical. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4595 "2020-10-05T20:45:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not sure that’s the way that transphobe is always used though. Certainly it gets aimed at people who make statements like “sex is real” and other such non-hateful statements. In those cricumstances I can well imagine someone saying “well if that is what you consider a transphobe, then fine…I’ll call myself a transphobe and own it” It also gets aimed at people who deny employment to trans people, who refuse to cater to them in public establishments, and who physically attack them. It seems to me that, if you want to make sure that saying “sex is real” is treated as a legitimate, acceptable viewpoint, you’d want to put a lot of effort into maintaining and highlighting the difference between merely being gender critical, and [beating a woman to death in the street.](https://www.colorlines.com/articles/transgender-woman-beaten-death-harlem) ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4596 "2020-10-05T20:46:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The whole “sodomizers” thing sort of falls apart, in that referring to all queer sex as “sodomy” doesn’t really resolve the “penis-in-vagina sex is not really queer sex” concern, but there’s certainly no end to people in the queer community taking slurs and using them as self-identifiers. See, for example, the word “queer.” (Parody hat back on) So what? Logic isn’t behind any of my objections. Only my feelings are relevant. “Sodomizers” strikes me as more inclusive than “gay men” because the latter presumes there is such thing as _gay men_. And everyone knows this concept totally excludes members of the queer community (like myself) who think concepts like “gay” and “men” are offensively cishet-cishom-transhet-transhom normative. So rather than [National Gay Men’s HIV/AIDS Awareness Day](https://www.hiv.gov/events/awareness-days/gay-mens), I am demanding that it be termed National Sodomizers HIV Day. You’re saying there is a tradition of taking back slurs, so let’s make this happen then. Just skip the unnecessary humanizing language of “gay men” and reduce them to what they really are. In the meantime, we can tell ourselves that all the non-gay non-men out there having sex with each other’s penises will now be reached by our awareness campaign when previously they were shut out. Erasing gay men from HIV awareness literature sounds like it could be a mistake of epic proportion, but it really isn’t when you think about it. I mean, Ireland is doing the same thing with women and cervical cancer guidance, but you don’t see any outbreaks of “anyone with cervixes” dying, do you? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4597 "2020-10-05T20:55:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m saying that she’s ignorant of queer culture because of specific things she’s said that indicate she doesn’t know what major topics of conversation among queer people actually are. Yes but when women point out that transwomen aren’t socialized as female—and very often are obvious in this lack of socialization—we are told we are transphobic. This article reads like nothing a woman would write, for instance. > **[Everything a Queer Cis Woman Needs to Know About Having Sex With Trans Women](https://www.allure.com/story/guide-to-sex-with-trans-women-for-cis-women)** > > Communication is everything. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4598 "2020-10-05T21:00:03Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not sure that’s the way that transphobe is always used though. Certainly it gets aimed at people who make statements like “sex is real” and other such non-hateful statements. In those cricumstances I can well imagine someone saying “well if that is what you consider a transphobe, then fine…I’ll call myself a transphobe and own it” Here are the 5 demands of Woman’s Place UK, which all but one of the Labour leadership candidates signed a statement calling a transphobic hate group: 1. Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard. 2. The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended. 3. A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act (which allow for single sex services, or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice. 4. Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces. 5. Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap. That’s what ‘transphobic’ means today. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4599 "2020-10-05T21:08:55Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Yes but when women point out that transwomen aren’t socialized as female—and very often are obvious in this lack of socialization—we are told we are transphobic. It’s the elephant in the room. We must accept whatever anyone says about themselves without question, and ignore our own perceptions and understanding of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4600 "2020-10-05T21:12:24Z")
It doesn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4601 "2020-10-05T21:15:35Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > This article reads like nothing a woman would write, for instance. How so, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4602 "2020-10-05T21:23:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It also gets aimed at people who deny employment to trans people, who refuse to cater to them in public establishments, and who physically attack them. Which is where the term properly sits. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that, if you want to make sure that saying “sex is real” is treated as a legitimate, acceptable viewpoint, you’d want to put a lot of effort into maintaining and highlighting the difference between merely being gender critical, and [beating a woman to death in the street.](https://www.colorlines.com/articles/transgender-woman-beaten-death-harlem) The person saying “sex is real” can honestly point to the fact they are doing none of the true transphobic stuff. Yet they still get the label. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4603 "2020-10-05T21:36:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When a gender-critical feminist gets called a transphobe, what’s being said is, “You hate and discriminate against trans people.” That’s not true. Not always true, not even close to it… especially when the target is a woman. monstro and YWTF do not hate and discriminate against trans people, but I’ve no doubt many would call them transphobes. I say that anyone who calls either of them a transphobe is a liar. What such a person is REALLY saying is “you are a woman who won’t shut up and do as you’re told.” It very often just means “person who will not say that transwomen are literally women” or some variant of that. In many cases - not here, but it’s sadly not uncommon elsewhere - “TERF” and “transphobe” are used to mean “a person (most often a lesbian) who won’t have sex with transwomen.” > **[India Willoughby: Is it discriminatory to refuse to date a trans woman?](https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42652947)** > > Was it transphobic for singer Ginuwine to state that that he wouldn't date a trans woman on reality TV show Celebrity Big Brother? > **[When You Say “I Would Never Date A Trans Person,” It’s Transphobic. Here’s Why.](https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca)** > > There has been a lot of discussion lately about transgender people, specifically about whether you are transphobic or not if you have a… > **[I'm a lesbian. Is it transphobic to not want to date a trans woman (pre or...](https://www.quora.com/Im-a-lesbian-Is-it-transphobic-to-not-want-to-date-a-trans-woman-pre-or-post-op)** > > Answer (1 of 70): I’m gonna put my vote in for “yes”. > > It’s not transphobic to not want to date a particular trans woman. That’s just not being attracted to someone. While there’s a conversation to be had about how social norms, including... > **[Trans athlete claims lesbians are transphobic for not liking penises](https://thepostmillennial.com/trans-athlete-claims-lesbians-are-transphobic-for-not-liking-penises)** > > McKinnon is a vocal trans activist who has physically dominated biological women in her own sport of cycling and is now railing against the “cotton ceiling” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4604 "2020-10-05T21:54:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s not true. Not always true, not even close to it… especially when the target is a woman. monstro and YWTF do not hate and discriminate against trans people, but I’ve no doubt many would call them transphobes. I say that anyone who calls either of them a transphobe is a liar. …here’s how Planned Parenthood defines transphobia. > [@Planned Parenthood](#): > > ## What’s transphobia? > > Transphobia is the fear, hatred, disbelief, or mistrust of people who are [transgender](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender), thought to be transgender, or whose gender expression doesn’t conform to traditional [gender roles](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/what-are-gender-roles-and-stereotypes). Transphobia can prevent transgender and gender nonconforming people from living full lives free from harm. > > Transphobia can take many different forms, including > > - negative attitudes and beliefs > - aversion to and prejudice against transgender people > - irrational fear and misunderstanding > - disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity > - derogatory language and name-calling > - bullying, abuse, and even violence > > Transphobia can create both subtle and overt forms of discrimination. For example, people who are transgender (or even just thought to be transgender) may be denied jobs, housing, or health care, just because they’re transgender. > **[What's Transphobia and Transmisia?](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/whats-transphobia)** > > Transgender and gender nonconforming people may experience harassment or discrimination from people who are scared or uncomfortable with these identities. I’m not lying when I say that I believe you and monstro and YWTF hold negative beliefs and attitudes towards transgender people, that you and monstro and YWTF have an aversion and a prejudice against transgender people, that you all display irrational fear and misunderstanding towards transgender people, that (you especially) disbelieve and discount preferred pronouns or gender identity (unless forced into it when performing official duties as a moderator). So I’m not entirely sure that the label “transphobic” is inappropriate here, and I don’t think that being a woman makes any difference. The definition looks pretty straight forward to me. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4605 "2020-10-05T22:00:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not lying when I say that I believe you and monstro and YWTF hold negative beliefs and attitudes towards transgender people, that you and monstro and YWTF have an aversion and a prejudice against transgender people, that you all display irrational fear and misunderstanding towards transgender people, that (you especially) disbelieve and discount preferred pronouns or gender identity (unless forced into it when performing official duties as a moderator). Unfortunately, you are extremely misguided. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=229) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=231)