# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 247
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4927 "2020-10-09T20:26:23Z")
Gender critical feminists: “Gender identity theory is misogynistic because it relies on and reenforces gender-based stereotypes.” Also gender critical feminists: “Most feminine men are gay.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4928 "2020-10-09T20:36:04Z")
I’m not understanding why you think that’s a big gotcha. I suspect that the vast majority of gender critical folks will agree that performance is a huge part of sexuality. Straight women who want partners have to perform a certain way if they expect to get some action from men. Walking around like a lumberjack, for instance, isn’t going to be an aattractive quality for the majority of straight men, since straight men dig women, and lumberjackness isn’t a quality associated with women. But gender crittcs don’t think lumberjackness is what makes a man a man. You can be the best lumberjack there is and have a vagina and that just means you’re a female lumberjack. It doesn’t mean you’re a lumberjack trapped in a woman’s body so let’s call you Sam now instead of Samantha. Gender critics don’t want us to go down the path of equating behavior with gender. But they are OK with using behavior as an indicator of sexuality–since sexuality does involve expression and performance. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4929 "2020-10-09T20:36:18Z")
Hon can be a term catty transwomen use _for other transwomen_. What you were describing was a transwoman using it _for everyone_ at work. Seems way more likely a dialectal idiosyncracity than a trans-cultural usage, like **Ann** said. Especially if she was the only transwoman there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4930 "2020-10-09T20:40:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Straight women who want partners have to perform a certain way if they expect to get some action from men. No, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4931 "2020-10-09T20:45:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, they don’t. My personal experience says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4932 "2020-10-09T20:47:26Z")
Cute, but irrelevant. Your personal experience doesn’t trump mine, in a case where **monstro** spoke in absolutes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4933 "2020-10-09T20:48:16Z")
I may not know many transwomen in real life, but I do talk to them on the internet believe it or not. Apparently in some transwomen communities, “hon” is used both as a slur _and_ as a term of endearment, kind of like how “nigga” is for black folks. My trans coworker would whip out “hon” the way some folks might use “dude” or “bro”. Because I noticed other transwomen I’ve talked to online speaking like this, I’ve come to the logical conclusion that it is a cultural thing. Especially since there are no 20- and 30-year-old ciswomen calling each other “hon” in my workplace (and my trans coworker is not in the 60+ demographic…which is the only one that can get away with calling me “hon” without it rubbing me the wrong way) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4934 "2020-10-09T20:52:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Gender critical feminists: “Gender identity theory is misogynistic because it relies on and reenforces gender-based stereotypes.” > > Also gender critical feminists: “Most feminine men are gay.” 1. I’m not at all sure I qualify as a gender critical feminist. 2. What I actually said was that I’d suspect a very obviously feminine man was gay. I’m not asserting that it’s categorically true. 3. However, if most feminine boys grow up to be gay, then it’s not a totally unreasonable suspicion. 4. I hope _you_ understand basic logic: “most A are B” does **not** imply “most B are A”. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4935 "2020-10-09T20:53:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Cute, but irrelevant. Your personal experience doesn’t trump mine, in a case where **monstro** spoke in absolutes. What, your personal experience of being a straight woman trying to attract men? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4936 "2020-10-09T20:54:11Z")
Getting hung up on whether “hon” is associated with transwomen is missing the forest for the trees. @monstro’s point is that communities often have their own ways of relating to each other. Those within the group have shared cultural norms. Outsiders who haven’t been schooled in all these norms often come off as try hards when they try to partake in the culture but miss the mark. Lesbians have these cultural norms. Transwomen—particular those that spent most of their adult lives as straight men—are often unschooled on these norms and show it. Think Michael Scott trying to fit in with the guys down in the warehouse levels of awkwardness. I can totally see this being a social barrier on top of the physical issue trans presents. “Hon” strikes me as stereotypically gay more than anything. @monstro, is your coworker attracted to men or women? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4937 "2020-10-09T20:55:49Z")
No, my personal experience of being a man attracted to women and not giving a fuck about their “performance”. Note that she _didn’t_ specify straight men in that sentence, only later. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4938 "2020-10-09T21:01:22Z")
You’re one person. It’s a question of widening/narrowing one’s dating pool, so for most women it’s necessary to put a certain amount of effort in. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4939 "2020-10-09T21:03:45Z")
So you think a woman can exhibit every male stereotype, including clothing and grooming, and still have the same number of male hollerers as a woman who conforms to all the norms of femininity? Are you serious right now? There will be a man somewhere on the planet who will bone her regardless of what she looks like or how she presents. But I’m talking about a woman’s chances of finding a mate she is compatible with (who isn’t, you know, _raping_ her). Her chances will be far greater if she performs a certain way than if she performs _any_ ole kind of way. The fact that you think otherwise is incredible to me. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4940 "2020-10-09T21:07:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You’re one person. It’s a question of widening/narrowing one’s dating pool, so for most women it’s necessary to put a certain amount of effort in. This is inarguable. It’s amazing what people are choosing to argue about in this thread. I wouldn’t have gotten a second date with my husband if I strolled up looking like a Mario brother with bed hair and a makeup-less face. By presenting as I did, I made it easy for him to see me as an attractive woman who has the goods he was in the market for. That’s what the performance of gender presentation and grooming do on the dating scene. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4941 "2020-10-09T21:09:20Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > looking like a Mario brother Complete with moustache? 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4942 "2020-10-09T21:11:37Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I wouldn’t have gotten a second date with my husband if I strolled up looking like a Mario brother with bed hair and a makeup-less face. By presenting as I did, I made it easy for him to see me as an attractive woman who has the goods he was in the market for. That’s what the performance of gender presentation and grooming do on the dating scene. We have now reached the point in the thread where people are implying appearance doesn’t matter in sexual attraction. It is truly a though-the-looking-class position to take. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4943 "2020-10-09T21:12:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Complete with moustache? 🤣 Girl yes. I shudder to think what my life would be like without razors. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4944 "2020-10-09T21:15:28Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Girl yes. I shudder to think what my life would be like without razors. I was thinking of trying laser hair removal, but I hate pain and spending money. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4945 "2020-10-09T21:16:19Z")
I have no idea. I mean, when I started noticing it I did wonder if perhaps she had been a campy gay man before transitioning. But then I noticed it among other trans women online. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4946 "2020-10-10T08:24:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So you think a woman can exhibit every male stereotype, including clothing and grooming, and still have the same number of male hollerers as a woman who conforms to all the norms of femininity? Are you serious right now? Oh, so now it’s “the same numbers”? My, how those goalposts have moved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=246) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=248)