# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 248
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4947 "2020-10-10T08:29:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > We have now reached the point in the thread where people are implying appearance doesn’t matter in sexual attraction. Who has implied that, I wonder? Certainly not me. I’m saying there’s no one "performance’ of “femininity” that works for all men. Some men like quite butch women, and/or are turned off by very girly-girls. Not butch to the caricature degree **monstro** is currently strawmanning, but certainly to a degree that gives the lie to “Straight women who want partners have to perform **a certain way** ”. There is no one certain way. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4948 "2020-10-10T09:29:09Z")
[further news from world Rugby.](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/09/world-rugby-bans-trans-women-from-elite-womens-game-due-to-injury-risks) It seems like the evidence suggests increased harm to biological women if trans women are permitted in the game, It seems like a fair test of the extreme position doesn’t it? Real research suggest real harm, will the absolutist activists still challenge this? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4949 "2020-10-10T10:16:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m saying there’s no one "performance’ of “femininity” that works for all men. Some men like quite butch women, and/or are turned off by very girly-girls. Why didn’t you say that in the first place? We could have avoided the whole argument. Yes there are plenty of men who don’t like very girly girls, but that doesn’t mean they appreciate hairy legs or a buzz cut. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4950 "2020-10-10T11:09:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why didn’t you say that in the first place? I did. You may have not _understood_ it, but that’s exactly what I was saying when I said “No, they don’t” to **monstro** ’s absolute statement about women _having to_ perform “a certain way”. > [@](#): > > We could have avoided the whole argument. We could avoided it by _you_ not jumping straight to a snarky reply mocking my earlier posts about personal experience, too. But ya didn’t. > [@](#): > > Yes there are plenty of men who don’t like very girly girls, but that doesn’t mean they appreciate hairy legs or a buzz cut. Quite a lot of men like a buzz cut, actually. Sinead O’Connor, GI Jane, _Aliens3_ Ripley - all seemed to have quite vocal fans of their look. I know I like it on the right face shape. Hairy legs, not so much, but that’s not, I think, because hairy legs are _masculine_. It’s more in keeping with the no-pubes thing. Me, I don’t care either way. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4951 "2020-10-10T11:41:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Real research suggest real harm, will the absolutist activists still challenge this? Lol. [Of course they are still challenging it.](https://mobile.twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1314626860085542912) Stonewall is disappointed that elite female rugby players will no longer be at increased risk of serious injury on the field. They are also disappointed that transwomen no longer get two scoops of ice cream while everyone else gets one: now they must play against other males instead of having their pick between male and female. Oh the humanity, right? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4952 "2020-10-10T12:45:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I did. You may have not _understood_ it, but that’s exactly what I was saying when I said “No, they don’t” to **monstro** ’s absolute statement about women _having to_ perform “a certain way”. I’m not a mind reader. My comment had nothing to do with your earlier posts, I was pointing out that you don’t have the relevant experience on this, for obvious reasons. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Quite a lot of men like a buzz cut, actually. Sinead O’Connor, GI Jane, _Aliens3_ Ripley - all seemed to have quite vocal fans of their look. I know I like it on the right face shape. > Hairy legs, not so much, but that’s not, I think, because hairy legs are _masculine_ . It’s more in keeping with the no-pubes thing. Me, I don’t care either way. Sure, if you’re beautiful and have the right face shape, you can get away with a buzz cut. For the rest of us, not so much. As for hairy legs not being masculine, do you want a chance to explain that you actually meant something more reasonable before I point out how ridiculous that is? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4953 "2020-10-10T12:54:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m not a mind reader. My comment had nothing to do with your earlier posts So, you don’t know how message board threads work, then? Good to know. > [@](#): > > I was pointing out that you don’t have the relevant experience on this And you were wrong about that. Because you weren’t following the whole thread. Here’s a tip - don’t do that. > [@](#): > > Sure, if you’re beautiful and have the right face shape I didn’t say anything about beautiful when talking about my tastes. Maybe read what I actually wrote. > [@](#): > > you can get away with a buzz cut. For the rest of us, not so much. That’s irrelevant. **monstro** was absolute in her statement. If it works for “beautiful” women, then it’s clearly not a blocker. If she wanted to say the “ugly women have to be more feminine, beautiful women can get away with not being so obviously feminine” statement _you_ think she made, then she should have said _that_. I’m just going by what she actually wrote. > [@](#): > > As for hairy legs not being masculine, do you want a chance to explain that you actually meant something more reasonable before I point out how ridiculous that is? Do _you_ want a chance to re-read what I _actually_ wrote, before thinking you have a gotcha, there? I didn’t say anything about “hairy legs not being masculine”. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4954 "2020-10-10T13:07:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s irrelevant. **monstro** was absolute in her statement. If it works for “beautiful” women, then it’s clearly not a blocker. The point is that women in general have to conform to at least some of the norms of femininity in order to find a male partner (that she’s actually interested in herself). Do you agree with that? Cause if so I don’t see the point of arguing about arguing. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Do _you_ want a chance to re-read what I _actually_ wrote, before thinking you have a gotcha, there? I didn’t say anything about “hairy legs not being masculine”. What are you trying to say, then? Cos that’s how I read it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4955 "2020-10-10T13:07:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t say anything about beautiful when talking about my tastes. Maybe read what I actually wrote. Everything is not about you. But a lot of what you’ve posted recently (that I’ve noticed) has a get out of jail, ‘In my experience’ card. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Do _you_ want a chance to re-read what I _actually_ wrote, before thinking you have a gotcha, there? I didn’t say anything about “hairy legs not being masculine”. If multiple people have a hard time understanding what you mean when you say things, perhaps the problem lies with the way you express yourself. Honestly, it’s becoming more and more tedious to try to figure out what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4956 "2020-10-10T13:11:01Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Lol. [Of course they are still challenging it.](https://mobile.twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1314626860085542912) I’m no longer surprised that they don’t care whether women get to compete fairly in sport, but I am disappointed they put women’s safety from injury below trans women’s happiness. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4957 "2020-10-10T13:15:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The point is that women in general have to conform to at least some of the norms of femininity in order to find a male partner (that she’s actually interested in herself). That may be _your_ point, but that’s not what **monstro** wrote. She was quite absolute about “ **a** certain way” - singular. > [@](#): > > Do you agree with that? No, I don’t. As I’ve already said - some guys just _like_ butch women. > [@](#): > > What are you trying to say, then? Cos that’s how I read it. I’m saying the masculinity or femininity of it is probably irrelevant, I suspect men like it for other reasons, more to do with neoteny. I mean, there’s nothing unfeminine about having pubic hair, either. Not that I, personally, consider hair on legs unfeminine. But I guess the feminists and hippies only taught that to _some_ of us. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4958 "2020-10-10T13:17:36Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > As for hairy legs not being masculine, do you want a chance to explain that you actually meant something more reasonable before I point out how ridiculous that is? Dude, it’s totally because of the no-pubes thing. Never mind that this too is a standard of femininity imposed on women to distance them from men. It’s totally no-pubes! Someone should kindly inform @MrDibble that he is undermining the central tenets of gender identity by insisting women can present however they want and still attract men. If this is true, then this only affirms that biological sex trumps gender expression. If biological sex trumps gender expression, then it’s unreasonable to expect straight men and lesbian women to be attracted to transwomen anywhere to the same extent as they are women. He said it himself: women can do whatever they want and still arouse men. A transwoman cannot. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4959 "2020-10-10T13:23:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Everything is not about you. _checks forum title_ Yes, it is… > [@](#): > > But a lot of what you’ve posted recently (that I’ve noticed) has a get out of jail, ‘In my experience’ card. And you clearly hate that. Tough shit - actual experience does counter fantasy. > [@](#): > > If multiple people have a hard time understanding what you mean when you say things, perhaps the problem lies with the way you express yourself. No, I’m pretty sure it lies with biased readers who are too eager to get their own snark attack in first, rather than read what I actually wrote. > [@](#): > > Honestly, it’s becoming more and more tedious to try to figure out what you mean. Feel free to stop reading, then. I’m not responsible for you finding actually reading what’s written “tedious”. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4960 "2020-10-10T13:28:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m no longer surprised that they don’t care whether women get to compete fairly in sport, but I am disappointed they put women’s safety from injury below trans women’s happiness. I’m grateful they are so blatant about it. There is no pretense of them caring _at all_ about women, which at least saves our intelligence the insult. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4961 "2020-10-10T13:35:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Feel free to stop reading, then. Thanks for your permission. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4962 "2020-10-10T13:39:13Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I’m grateful they are so blatant about it. There is no pretense of them caring _at all_ about women, which at least saves our intelligence the insult. Ironically, Stonewall have joined the campaign to make misogyny a hate crime. Probably because they’re planning to base it on gender, not sex… > ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4963 "2020-10-10T13:41:07Z")
Gender ideologues: “People are attracted to the expression of gender identity–the clothing, the mannerisms, the speech patterns that people exhibit that can be classified along gender lines. They aren’t attracted to biology, you old school robots. They are attracted to performance.” Also gender ideologues: “I will fuck a woman no matter how she acts. So should everyone who isn’t an old school robot.” Someone please explain to me why a straight woman would want action from men who aren’t straight. I guess I’m too much of an old school robot to understand why @MrDibble needed this spelled out to him. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4964 "2020-10-10T13:43:12Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Dude, it’s totally because of the no-pubes thing. Never mind that this too is a standard of femininity imposed on women to distance them from men. It’s totally no-pubes! The real question is why do many men remove one of their most prominent secondary sexual characteristics by shaving their face. It doesn’t make much sense on the face (hah) of it. Perhaps I should start a thread? ---
**Author:** ![Berthathefan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a8b319/32.png) [@Berthathefan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berthathefan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4965 "2020-10-10T13:45:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Quite a lot of men like a buzz cut, actually. Sinead O’Connor, GI Jane, _Aliens3_ Ripley - all seemed to have quite vocal fans of their look. I know I like it on the right face shape. > Hairy legs, not so much, but that’s not, I think, because hairy legs are _masculine_ . It’s more in keeping with the no-pubes thing. Me, I don’t care either way. All of these women are not so young anymore. These movies are decades old. Are there any straight young woman rocking the shaven head look? Off the top of my head I can’t think of any. Surely there’s some? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4966 "2020-10-10T13:51:58Z")
Recently? Karen Gillan for a bit, when she was playing Nebula. Rose McGowan. Kristen Stewart. There are more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=247) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=249)