# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 249
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4967 "2020-10-10T13:52:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The real question is why do many men remove one of their most prominent secondary sexual characteristics by shaving their face. It doesn’t make much sense on the face (hah) of it. Perhaps I should start a thread? With the rise of the hipster bro, more men are growing beards. Men seem to be embracing a more au natural look at the same time women are doing the complete opposite. Lip fillers, breast implants, ass shots, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4968 "2020-10-10T14:01:35Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Gender ideologues: “People are attracted to the expression of gender identity–the clothing, the mannerisms, the speech patterns that people exhibit that can be classified along gender lines. They aren’t attracted to biology, you old school robots. They are attracted to performance.” > > Also gender ideologues: “I will fuck a woman no matter how she acts. So should everyone who isn’t an old school robot.” Quick question - are these the same “gender ideologues” in both your made-up strawmen? Maybe some actual quotes from a real poster saying both those things would be more convincing than your fantasy straw-ideologues. > [@](#): > > Someone please explain to me why a straight woman would want action from men who aren’t straight. What, straight women don’t fuck bi guys? Guess _my_ entire lovelife has been imaginary, then… The sexual insight lecture series of the asexual into everyone else’s desires continues apace. Unless you’re saying it’s _gay_ to be attracted to butch women? That would be an idiotic statement. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4969 "2020-10-10T14:04:49Z")
Never mind about Kristen Stewart, she’s not straight. ---
**Author:** ![Berthathefan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a8b319/32.png) [@Berthathefan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berthathefan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4970 "2020-10-10T14:11:11Z")
Neither is Rose McGowan. There’s Pink. Is she considered attractive by straight men? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4971 "2020-10-10T14:13:33Z")
> [@Berthathefan](#): > > Neither is Rose McGowan. As far as I know, she’s outright said she’s not bi. > [@](#): > > There’s Pink. Is she considered attractive by straight men? Wouldn’t know, but I would guess so. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4972 "2020-10-10T14:23:31Z")
MrDibble: > What, straight women don’t fuck bi guys? Guess _my_ entire lovelife has been imaginary, then… But if she wants action right now, she doesn’t want to fly all the way out to South Africa. She wants action from the menfolks who are in her general vicinity. Believe it or not, my dude, most men are straight. Most men respond to displays of femininity. They don’t want to relationship woman who looks and acts like a dude. They may screw a person that looks and acts any ole kind of way, but they probably won’t stay with her. “Action” for a woman usually involves both things. > [@](#): > > The sexual insight lecture series of the asexual into everyone else’s desires continues apace. Notice how a bunch of straight people are agreeing with me right now? I might be asexual, but I seem to have a better grasp of _straight_ sexuality than you do. You are the only one who was confused by what I wrote. Probably because only you (at least right now) have a hard-on for disagreeing with me on very uncontroversial opinions and statements. > Unless you’re saying it’s _gay_ to be attracted to butch women? That would be an idiotic statement. _sigh_ The vast majority of men are _not_ attracted to butch women. Sinead O’Connor and Ripley are not butch women, ffs! They are women who conform to notions of femininity _despite_ having short hair. There are plenty of straight women who tried to do the Sinead O’Conner thing back in the 90s and they quickly realized that their odds of getting male action were lower than before. Only a derp would have a problem understanding why. Only a derp would think his personal preferences refute a generalization about human behavior. Most men aren’t attracted to 600-lb women or women with third eyes in the middle of their forehead. But yes, there are men who are willing to ignore these qualities if it means they can get some. The existence of these men doesn’t mean that women can look or act any ole kind of way and expect to get action from _partners they are compatible with_. Everyone has to perform a certain way if they want to get partners who perform to _their_ liking. If this statement is wrong, then what the fuck is _gender expression or gender identity_? These are totally meaningless concepts if performance is not a very critical element of sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4973 "2020-10-10T14:23:36Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > With the rise of the hipster bro, more men are growing beards. Men seem to be embracing a more au natural look at the same time women are doing the complete opposite. Lip fillers, breast implants, ass shots, etc. Not sure hipsters are really au naturel in other ways. And I believe they still have to shave sometimes to avoid their facial hair turning into a neckbeard. No one likes that! Re lip fillers etc, women in Hollywood do that stuff, but it’s not exactly common. I do think there’s been a fair amount of spread from porn into the mainstream, though, and not just aesthetics. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4974 "2020-10-10T14:24:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The vast majority of men are _not_ attracted to butch women. Yep. I agree completely. Do you see how that’s different from the absolutist post you _originally_ made? > [@monstro](#): > > a generalization about human behavior. You didn’t post a generalization. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4975 "2020-10-10T14:27:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Believe it or not, my dude, most men are straight. I don’t agree. _Most_ people are bi. Or, at least, not Kinsey absolutes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4976 "2020-10-10T14:28:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you see how that’s different from the absolutist post you _originally_ made? I didn’t make an absolutist post! You pulled a sentence out of context and you’re beating me over the head with it in an incredibly derpy, hella annoying way. Please stop. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4977 "2020-10-10T14:28:30Z")
I’m torn between moderating and asking everyone to please take the aggression down a notch, and jumping into the fray. I’m going to be weak and self-serving, and jump into the fray. But, um, I do feel both sides here could try to read each other more generously. I’m a person who claims to be attracted to “masculinity” rather than bodies, per se. (And to be more precise, I’m mostly attracted to people who are mildly masculine. I find extreme masculinity, like femininity, a turn off.) But it’s not (at least for me) about performance, it’s about an underlying masculine mind set. I actually struggle with the modern conception of gender, because I’m a first wave feminist (i think that’s right) who believes that your sex shouldn’t determine how you have to behave or perform. But that’s a topic for a different thread. I will testify that as a woman who never shaved, and never wears makeup, I’ve had no trouble at all attracting men. No doubt it depends which men you are trying to attract. And as a married woman for most of my adult life, i haven’t been really trying to attract men. But yet, I have had plenty of masculine interest from men i find attractive. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4978 "2020-10-10T14:34:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t make an absolutist post! Yes, you did. > [@](#): > > You pulled a sentence out of context I _know_ you _do_ know how threads work. Context is right there in your post for anyone to read. You made a statement about _one way_ women _have_ to act to find a partner, no ifs or buts. > [@](#): > > and you’re beating me over the head with it in an incredibly derpy, hella annoying way. I’ve mostly been referring to it in talking to someone who isn’t actually you. If you perceive quoting you to someone else as beating _you_ over the head, I don’t know what to say. > [@](#): > > Please stop. Stop quoting your own words? Why would I do that? Don’t want to stand by your own words, don’t post them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4979 "2020-10-10T14:36:35Z")
Most men might be bi. I can buy that But that doesn’t mean most men don’t prefer signs of femininity in their female partners. Being attracted to a petite, feminine woman with a pixie cut who dresses andrgynously is not the same thing as being attracted to a broad-shouldered, bald-headed woman who dresses like a lumberjack and has the swagger of a b-boy. Bi does not mean “will fuck anything”. ---
**Author:** ![Berthathefan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a8b319/32.png) [@Berthathefan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berthathefan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4980 "2020-10-10T14:38:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > There are plenty of straight women who tried to do the Sinead O’Conner thing back in the 90s and they quickly realized that their odds of getting male action were lower than before. Only a derp would have a problem understanding why. Yes, my husband did not agree with me that Sinead O’Connor was quite beautiful until I showed him a picture of her with long hair. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4981 "2020-10-10T14:38:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But, um, I do feel both sides here could try to read each other more generously. And by “both sides” I primarily mean @monstro and @MrDibble. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4982 "2020-10-10T14:44:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But that doesn’t mean most men don’t prefer signs of femininity in their female partners. I already agreed with that statement (or at least, the negation of its inverse). > [@monstro](#): > > Bi does not mean “will fuck anything”. And I never said it did. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4983 "2020-10-10T14:47:42Z")
Understood. But can I ask that you please highlight your mod posts versus your poster posts? This is a busy thread. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4984 "2020-10-10T14:48:30Z")
Yes, thanks for the reminder. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4985 "2020-10-10T14:49:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Recently? Karen Gillan for a bit, when she was playing Nebula. They spend like a hundred zillion dollars on those movies, and couldn’t figure out a way to make her look like Nebula without telling her she had to shave her head. Bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/4986 "2020-10-10T14:49:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I will testify that as a woman who never shaved, and never wears makeup, I’ve had no trouble at all attracting men. No doubt it depends which men you are trying to attract. And as a married woman for most of my adult life, i haven’t been really trying to attract men. But yet, I have had plenty of masculine interest from men i find attractive. A big factor in your success likely is the delta between “natural” you and society’s standard of beauty. The smaller the delta, the easier it’s going to be for you to turn heads regardless of what you do. The bigger the delta, the more effort will be needed to turn heads. This can’t be debated without being ridiculous. I’m not a hag by any means, but there’s no denying that if I had been indifferent to and non-compliant with the standards defining The Attractive Woman, my dating struggles would have been several fold more onerous than they were. And they were onerous. If your dating pool already is biased against tall, professionally accomplished African American women because reasons, then your profile pic can’t have you looking like a Mario brother and expect to net you a quality husband. Dating for both men and women is an arms race. We are all competing for not just any ole body; we are vying for the most desirable mates we are capable of scoring. This doesn’t mean it’s impossible for an individual to be competitive just by being their au naturale selves (as is probably your case), but this doesn’t work for the vast majority of people. As long as a critical mass of people are raising the bar for acceptability, it puts pressure on everyone else to play the game too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=248) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=250)