# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 253
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5047 "2020-10-11T12:33:42Z")
I am new to this thread. I admit that I have not read all 5042 posts, but I did go back about a month to try and wrap my head around the general tone of the discussion. I am a 1999er, but I mostly lurk. Some of you might have seen a post or two of mine and many of you are thinking “Who is this guy???” In short, I am a 67 year old straight man. I have been married to the love of my life for 45 years. I came to this thread after attending a wedding Friday evening. I posted this in another thread: > [@](#): > > We went to an outdoor family wedding. With everyone wearing masks, I made an assumption that the nicely dressed young man who greeted us as we got to the site was likely a friend of the bride. He did not look familiar at all. Shortly thereafter, I found out that the last time I had seen this nicely dressed young man he was my grand niece. I apologized profusely. He understood. The last time we had spent together, we had a nice conversation over a glass or two of wine at Thanksgiving three years ago. She had just come out as a lesbian then and some of the family seemed to be avoiding her. I told her than that I supported her 100% and I renewed that for him. I will read along here, and comment occasionally. I just wanted to be on record as to where I stand. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5048 "2020-10-11T12:37:29Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > I’m struggling to understand how a brand new, private, changing room created specifically for the one person in the entire school who “needs” it, could possibly be described as a ghetto. Plenty of teenagers would love to have a private changing room at school. It wasn’t a brand new space, it was an existing bathroom, previously used by some adult staff. They just changed the sign on the door. Which is fine, no one needs a brand new space if existing spaces are adequate. The problem was the isolation. You don’t recall wanting to “fit in” as a teenager? You would really have wanted to to be isolated and not allowed to be in the same spaces your peers used? You really can’t see how that created a ghetto? My health club has open changing areas with a couple of little private rooms. The private rooms aren’t labeled, and anyone can choose to use one. I believe they added those when they were legally required to allow transwoman in the women’s changing room. They allow a transwoman to hide her penis without being ghettoized. They also allow other women to hide whatever they don’t want a transwoman to see if there happens to be one changing in the open area. I assume anyone just lingering in the changing room displaying their genitalia would be asked to get dressed and move on. There are lots of solutions that don’t require creating a ghetto. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5049 "2020-10-11T12:41:42Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > No one has asked these teenage girls if they want to get undressed around a male or if they want a male getting undressed around them. It’s being forced on them…if you don’t get changed for PE, you get an F. If you don’t get changed for practice/games, you can’t be on the team. It’s not fair to value the feelings and wants of the one or maybe two trans students over the feelings and wants of all the other students You realize that exactly this reasoning supports excluding the black girl from the locker room. I’m not saying it unimportant to consider everyone’s needs and comfort, but that’s a slippery slope of it’s own. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5050 "2020-10-11T12:56:33Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > When making my posts in this thread, I think of all the harassment that I’ve received from men…I think about all the times that I’ve actually hidden in the women’s room to get away from some creepy guy and how screwed I would’ve been if any of those guys could’ve followed into the bathroom with impunity. But the thing is, those experiences comprise a very small percentage of all of my interactions with men…but that didn’t make them any less frightening or decrease my need for a single sex bathroom. So, while I don’t think that most men would fake being trans to walk into a women’s locker room, it’s the ones who would who are the problem. I think this IS a red herring. I don’t think any school is going to allow a boy to say, “today I am a girl, just long enough to chase this other girl I’m harassing.” Personally, I was harassed by girls a lot more than by boys in high school. I was once literally surrounded by a ring of hostile girls, and i escaped by looking to see which of them seemed least self-assured, and charging her. Another time, my best friend and I got into a fight and chased each other around the school. So I don’t think of a public restroom as a refuge, I actually think of gang ladies rooms as a potentially scary and threatening space. I don’t use them in train stations, for instance, because who knows who might be there. This no doubt colors my emotional reaction to the these issues, as you experience colors yours. Also, as an actuary, I’ve seen general liability claims. “Ladies rooms” are a common place for rapes to occur. A man who is willing to lie in wait to rape a woman isn’t deterred by a sign on the door, and may be helped by knowing that no “normal” man is likely to disturb him in his hunt. Obviously, crowded public ladies rooms are safe, but there are other ways to protect yourself with numbers. Once, when backpacking through Europe, I was hanging out on a train platform with a lot of other young women. Suddenly, a panicked young man ran into our midst. He’d just been assaulted in the men’s room, by an older man, and he asked us to give him the protection of numbers. Which, of course, we did. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5051 "2020-10-11T12:56:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My health club has open changing areas with a couple of little private rooms. The private rooms aren’t labeled, and anyone can choose to use one. So a guy can “choose” to stand in the common area buck naked and no-one will object or mind? Or are the changing rooms there to discourage him (everyone) from doing so? What kind of health club is this? ETA: I just realized you must mean the common areas are gender segregated. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5052 "2020-10-11T13:01:19Z")
It’s a women-only health club. They didn’t want to accept transwoman as members, but were required to by law. It’s otherwise a pretty ordinary private gym, with a changing area with lockers and benches, private shower stalls, private toilet stalls, public sinks, a room full of stationary bikes, a larger room full of treadmills and elliptical machines, and an area with weights and machines that provide tension and stuff, a little bar that sells “health drinks”… I’m not sure exactly what you are asking about it. ETA: oh, yeah, there’s only one “public” changing area because it’s a women’s gym. But actually, it’s large enough that there are several visually-separate areas, plus the little private rooms. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5053 "2020-10-11T13:03:00Z")
You answered my question with the “women-only” bit. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5054 "2020-10-11T13:04:09Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > I can’t tell if you meant for this to be a rhetorical question or not, but if not, yes i do think it’s a problem. It still hasn’t been explained why people with male bodies who have no intention of changing that body wouldn’t use the locker room for people with male bodies. I wish this would be explained too. It really is central to the competing rights question. The trans girl we’re talking about looks indistinguishable to a boy. In videos that I’ve seen, their gender expression didn’t even look particularly feminine. I’ve tried hard to look at this issue from the trans vantage point, and I can’t. I can understand their wanting to undress away from boys (bullying I’m sure is a problem) but their insistence on undressing with girls in lieu of their own space is where I get lost. I mentioned this before but I will say it again. As a woman, the thought of me undressing with men is unfathomable to me NOT because of concerns about my own safety and privacy. It’s because I know my presence would be disruptive in that space. Rape and voyeurism probably aren’t on men’s mind if a woman showed up, but other things would be. Some might find themselves nervous and shy (no more locker room talk, fellas), some might find themselves worried about committing the cardinal sin of leering, some might be scared of involuntary reactions down below, and others might be disgusted at all of these involuntary reactions. I absolutely have no idea the gamut of things that could arise if a woman disrobed in the men’s, but they are unlikely to be positive for most occupants in the space. So I use the women’s locker room as much for their privacy and dignity as my own. In this debate, if there was even a small hint that TRAs looked at things from a women’s perspective, I suspect things would be a lot less contentious. There still would be tensions, but this would feel less like a land grab and more like a negotiation. But the empathy seems to be expected to go in one direction only. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5055 "2020-10-11T13:11:12Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > But the empathy seems to be expected to go in one direction onl All the actual trans people i know are somewhat self conscious of their bodies and very sensitive to the discomfort of others – if only due to enlightened self-interest. I’ve never seen a penis in my gym. If I’ve ever changed with a transwoman, I’m certain she chose to use one of the (non-ghettoized) private spaces. And I’ve never seen anyone’s equipment in any public toilet ever. (I have been in unisex restrooms where I walked briskly past the urinals. A better design would eliminate the need for me to look away.) I feel like there are practical solutions to these issues that address everyone’s needs. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5056 "2020-10-11T13:15:06Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You realize that exactly this reasoning supports excluding the black girl from the locker room. No it’s not and really, we really need to lay off the flippant racial analogies. Unlike race, biological sex is not a social construct. It has practical importance that skin color doesn’t. The way we are socialized around sex is not arbitrary; it relates to how we function together as a sexual dimorphic species. There is a reason girls are trained to be wary of men when they are naked and alone, and it’s not irrational prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5057 "2020-10-11T13:25:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > All the actual trans people i know are somewhat self conscious of their bodies and very sensitive to the discomfort of others – if only due to enlightened self-interest. I’m sure this is true, but again, that’s not who is leading the change here. It is other people. The trans girl that we’re talking about didn’t seem as that concerned about the discomfort of girls. She lobbied for the right to access their space over their objections. Can you imagine doing anything like this? I can’t no matter how I try. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve never seen a penis in my gym. If I’ve ever changed with a transwoman, I’m certain she chose to use one of the (non-ghettoized) private spaces. > > And I’ve never seen anyone’s equipment in any public toilet ever. (I have been in unisex restrooms where I walked briskly past the urinals. A better design would eliminate the need for me to look away.) > > I feel like there are practical solutions to these issues that address everyone’s needs. I’ve seen naked parts (but not penises) in the gyms I’ve used; everyone lives something differently it seems. But if exposure of private parts is so rare in your experience, that makes it even stranger so much significance is being given to gender affirmation. What material difference is it that the transgirl undresses in the boy’s locker room, when they all have male bodies _and_ have privacy stalls to keep from exposing their bodies? How is undressing in a privacy stall within the girl’s room _that_ different that it necessitates special accommodation and policy changes? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5058 "2020-10-11T13:29:08Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I absolutely have no idea the gamut of things that could arise if a woman disrobed in the men’s, but they are unlikely to be positive for most occupants in the space. As a healthy straight male who has spent his entire life around gyms and health clubs, I feel like it’s worth noting that men need their “safe spaces” from women as well. Sometimes we just need a break from all that estrogen and to relax from sucking in our abs for a few goddamn minutes. Also, I’m happy to let whatever magic happens in the women’s locker room to remain a mystery. And women should be spared whatever shame goes on in the mens. It’s in the best interest for everyone, and the continuation of the species, really. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5059 "2020-10-11T13:36:17Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I’ve seen naked parts (but not penises) in the gyms I’ve used; everyone lives something differently it seems. I’ve seen breasts and buttocks. Have you ever seen a vag in a changing room?! I mean, i assume men do see each other’s penises in changing rooms, because that’s the nature of penises, but women’s bits don’t stick out. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5060 "2020-10-11T13:39:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > i assume men do see each other’s penises in changing rooms Nope. There’s a law. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5061 "2020-10-11T13:43:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve seen breasts and buttocks. Have you ever seen a vag in a changing room?! Not vag per se but vulva and mons pubis. There were regularly sightings at the women’s locker rooms I’ve used during my career. All three associated with federal government agencies, so we’re not talking about obscure facilities. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5062 "2020-10-11T13:49:20Z")
Fwiw, i joined the women’s health club because at the time there were two options, and it was cleaner, less crowded, had more equipment than the other, and was also both closer to my office and right across the street from my train station. I feel weird about it being women-only, and kind of apologized to my male friends for joining it. They were all jealous until two more health clubs opened up that are on par with mine, and nicer than the other one. I’ve stayed because i like my personal trainer. Honestly, these days, my “health club” is a beach towel in my bedroom and i see my trainer over Google Hangouts. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5063 "2020-10-11T13:58:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You realize that exactly this reasoning supports excluding the black girl from the locker room. I’m not saying it unimportant to consider everyone’s needs and comfort, but that’s a slippery slope of it’s own. If anyone really thought separating changing rooms and bathrooms by sex was equivalent to segregation, they’d be campaigning to make them all unisex. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5064 "2020-10-11T14:06:14Z")
Well, i am on team unisex. 🤷🏽‍♀️ Solves a lot of problems, imo. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5065 "2020-10-11T14:07:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, i am on team unisex. > 🤷🏽‍♀️ > Solves a lot of problems, imo. But you don’t think it’s a moral imperative, like desegregation, right? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5066 "2020-10-11T14:11:17Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I mean, i assume men do see each other’s penises in changing rooms, because that’s the nature of penises, but women’s bits don’t stick out. Some men are quite open about their nudity in the locker room. It’s not common, but it’s not unusual for fully naked men to walk from their locker to the shower, shave at the sink, blowdry their hair, blowdry their balls(!), etc. It’s like they consider the locker room a nudist resort and don’t feel the need to cover up. I get the feeling that kind of behavior virtually never happens in the women’s locker room. But then how to handle it if those men are sincere transwomen and do the same thing in the women’s room? I would guess that most women would find it extremely uncomfortable if a male-looking person was shaving at the sink while totally nude. The transwoman may have no pervy intent, but I would assume that most women would have serious concerns about what was going on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=252) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=254)