# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 266
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5307 "2020-10-14T23:27:34Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > One difference on the mens side is that the players have been playing in matches which have a male-level of aggression. Presumably, these players have developed over the years to be accustomed to that level of aggression and have developed the skills to deal with it. The reverse is not the same. The females have been playing against other females and are accustomed to the female level of play and aggression. Females are going to be overpowered by a biological male and not necessarily physically prepared to take the stronger hits from a biological male opponent. …you got all of that from a photo? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5308 "2020-10-14T23:28:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …here’s a picture of Jonah Lomu running over Mike Catt in probably his most famous try of his career. Both played the same position (opposite wings), Lomu weighed 114kg while Mike Catt was only 86kg. Lomu walked right over him. Yeah, that’s like being run over by a truck. Roughly speaking there is about a 25% mass difference between these two players. Now add the [physiological differences between men and women](https://www.livescience.com/52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html#:~:text=A%20study%20in%20the%20Journal,on%20average%2C%20the%20study%20found) > But in one way, the sex difference is stark: Men are physically stronger than women, on average. A [study in the Journal of Applied Physiology](http://jap.physiology.org/content/89/1/81) found that men had an average of 26 lbs. (12 kilograms) more skeletal muscle mass than women. Women also exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, the study found. > The researchers found that height and weight differences between men and women could explain only about half of the difference in strength. Researchers reporting in 1993 in the [European Journal of Applied Physiology](https://go.redirectingat.com/?id=92X1590019&xcust=livescience_us_1346753528984005400&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Farticle%2F10.1007%2FBF00235103&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.livescience.com52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html) found that men’s brawn could also be attributed to a larger cross-section in individual muscle fibers. Still think you’re comparing apples to apples? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Just pointing out the obvious: the people who complain about cancel culture the most are the people who spend the most time trying to cancel other people. Do you carry all this baggage with you everywhere you go? You must be very fit or very exhausted. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5309 "2020-10-14T23:30:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you got all of that from a photo? Yeah. Why didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5310 "2020-10-14T23:31:30Z")
Hey, Mod hat on. I’d like to remind posters not to insult each other. A lot of the rhetoric here is getting heated and some of it seem more directed at the posters than at the posts. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5311 "2020-10-15T00:05:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you got all of that from a photo? Yeah, and life experience. The players at the elite men’s league don’t just come from nowhere and start playing one day. They likely have been playing since they were kids and have moved up through more and more competitive teams. Along the way, they gradually advanced through higher levels of play which was faster, more aggressive, and more hard-hitting. By the time they are at the elite levels, they have extensive experience at playing at that speed and intensity, and at getting hit by players at that level. The same thing happens with the women, but they are playing against other women. In general, women’s play is slower, less aggressive, and the hits won’t be as hard. The elite women are still elite, but they are not at the level of elite men. I know from soccer that the under-15 elite boys can beat the US World Cup soccer team. If rugby is similar, the elite women might be comparable to 15-year-old boy rugby players. So a biologically adult male playing in the women’s league might be comparable to an adult male player playing against 15-year-old boys. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5312 "2020-10-15T00:06:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yeah, that’s like being run over by a truck. Roughly speaking there is about a 25% mass difference between these two players. Now add the [physiological differences between men and women](https://www.livescience.com/52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html#:~:text=A%20study%20in%20the%20Journal,on%20average%2C%20the%20study%20found) > > > But in one way, the sex difference is stark: Men are physically stronger than women, on …but why would you add the physiological differences between men and women? Most Rugby Unions have a requirements that need to be met in order for transgender players to be able to [play](https://www.usa.rugby/transgender/). So those differences are largely taken into account. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Still think you’re comparing apples to apples? If you didn’t already know there **is** a movement that thinks Polynesian rugby players are too big to be playing with other players. Parents are concerned their kids have to play against athletes “twice their size.” So if you don’t think we are “comparing apples with apples” then what is the difference between the two cases here? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yeah. Why didn’t you? Because most of it was pseudo-science. I don’t take that stuff seriously. And I didn’t get that from the photo at all. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5313 "2020-10-15T00:07:09Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Yeah, and life experience. …so not from the science? Completely and utterly anecdotal? Okay then. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5314 "2020-10-15T00:13:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if you don’t know what my position is then you aren’t in the position to put words in my mouth. So stop doing that already. I was surmising from your posts since you haven’t made it clear. And still haven’t. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because “obvious” is a subjective measure, not an objective one. And what you consider obvious and what other consider obvious is often a very different thing. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …here’s a picture of Jonah Lomu running over Mike Catt in probably his most famous try of his career. Both played the same position (opposite wings), Lomu weighed 114kg while Mike Catt was only 86kg. Lomu walked right over him. Women are not just small men. I guess that isn’t obvious enough for some people. There’s a huge list of differences, nearly all advantaging men, which a year or two of testosterone can never make up for. It’s not at all comparable to different races. ---
**Author:** ![JustSaying3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@JustSaying3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustSaying3)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5315 "2020-10-15T00:18:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > so not from the science? Completely and utterly anecdotal? > > Okay then There’s the “science” alluded to above. 15 yr old boys beat national level women’s teams in soccer and hockey. That’s even without allowing bodychecking in hockey. A transwoman who went through male puberty will have a crazy advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5316 "2020-10-15T00:25:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I was surmising from your posts since you haven’t made it clear. And still haven’t. …that you don’t understand my position doesn’t mean I haven’t either explained it, or that you should be allowed to simply “invent one” on my behalf. Just stop doing that already. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Women are not just small men. Transwomen are women. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I guess that isn’t obvious enough for some people. I guess that isn’t obvious enough for some people. > [@DemonTree](#): > > There’s a huge list of differences, nearly all advantaging men, which a year or two of testosterone can never make up for. Fortunately the Rugby Football Union doesn’t see it the same way as you do. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not at all comparable to different races. As a polynesian living in a rugby-mad country who has had to listen and deal with the very same arguments made in this thread against transgender women I would have to disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5317 "2020-10-15T00:28:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so not from the science? Completely and utterly anecdotal? > > Okay then. Hello Kettle, I’m Pot. Aren’t we both using anecdotal experience? When you described what you saw in the photo, was that based on scientific journal articles or your own experience? Taken from another angle, how far down in the mens leagues would a team of elite women have to go in order to win a rugby match? Like in the soccer example, the USA Women’s Team trains against under-15 boys and the boys win. It’s reasonable to say that elite adult women play soccer at a level at or below elite 15-year-old boys. What is comparable in rugby? If the top women’s rugby team played the elite under-15 boy rugby players, who would win? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5318 "2020-10-15T00:28:57Z")
> [@JustSaying3](#): > > A transwoman who went through male puberty will have a crazy advantage. …which is why transgender athletes who have been allowed to compete at the Olympic Games since 2004 have won **so** many medals. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![JustSaying3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@JustSaying3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustSaying3)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5319 "2020-10-15T00:29:50Z")
It’s weird. I think most people here agree that for transwomen=women as far as access to female spaces/services there should be some level of gatekeeping. Except Banquet Bear, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![JustSaying3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@JustSaying3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustSaying3)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5320 "2020-10-15T00:32:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > which is why transgender athletes who have been allowed to compete at the Olympic Games since 2004 have won **so** many medals. Just saying. So are you ok with surgery, years of hormone therapy and legal recognition\*, as the Olympics require, as a fair deal for transgender athletes? \*eta, actually they changed it to making a declaration of gender and sticking with it for four years. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5321 "2020-10-15T00:33:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but why would you add the physiological differences between men and women? Most Rugby Unions have a requirements that need to be met in order for transgender players to be able to [play](https://www.usa.rugby/transgender/). So those differences are largely taken into account. I suppose one reason its relevant is that the regulations say that a transwoman must post testosterone results below 10 nmol/L for 12 months before competition. The average women, premenopausal, measures 1.7 nmol/L. So not apples to apples. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you didn’t already know there **is** a movement that thinks Polynesian rugby players are too big to be playing with other players. Parents are concerned their kids have to play against athletes “twice their size.” So if you don’t think we are “comparing apples with apples” then what is the difference between the two cases here? That is interesting but I’m not sure it’s relevant. Unless the rugby league decides to exclude Polynesians from rugby, they will have to be permitted to continue to play as they have to date. More relevant is whether you see any issues with allowing transwomen to play in the mens league. If it’s about the love of the game, what’s the down side? Tangentially, are transmen playing in mens sports leagues with the same frequency as transwomen are playing in womens leagues? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5322 "2020-10-15T00:33:59Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Hello Kettle, I’m Pot. Aren’t we both using anecdotal experience? When you described what you saw in the photo, was that based on scientific journal articles or your own experience? …not really. I got shown a photo of rugby players playing on the rugby field and I said I saw a photo of rugby players playing on a rugby field. You saw that same photo and saw: “One difference on the mens side is that the players have been playing in matches which have a male-level of aggression. Presumably, these players have developed over the years to be accustomed to that level of aggression and have developed the skills to deal with it. The reverse is not the same. The females have been playing against other females and are accustomed to the female level of play and aggression. Females are going to be overpowered by a biological male and not necessarily physically prepared to take the stronger hits from a biological male opponent.” I mean, that’s a hell-of-a-take from just a photo. > [@filmore](#): > > Taken from another angle, how far down in the mens leagues would a team of elite women have to go in order to win a rugby match? Like in the soccer example, the USA Women’s Team trains against under-15 boys and the boys win. It’s reasonable to say that elite adult women play soccer at a level at or below elite 15-year-old boys. What is comparable in rugby? If the top women’s rugby team played the elite under-15 boy rugby players, who would win? Transwomen are women. What are you talking about here again? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5323 "2020-10-15T00:35:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As a polynesian living in a rugby-mad country who has had to listen and deal with the very same arguments made in this thread against transgender women I would have to disagree with you. What you are proposing is far more similar to a situation where polynesians were barred from playing in the main league, created their own league which received vastly less funding, recognition and respect, and as soon as they started to get a crumb of notice, white people insisted on joining and taking all the top spots, while still barring you from playing in their leagues. _That_ is the closest analogue to what you are supporting. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5324 "2020-10-15T00:36:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > Women are not just small men. > > Transwomen are women. Non-sequiturs fly like a banana. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5325 "2020-10-15T00:41:06Z")
I’m not sure they care about women as much as what can be gained through the manipulation of language. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/5326 "2020-10-15T00:43:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I mean, that’s a hell-of-a-take from just a photo. What specifically is controversial in the statement you are responding to that makes the claim below made by @filmore. Try to be less dismissive and more substantive, if you don’t mind: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “One difference on the mens side is that the players have been playing in matches which have a male-level of aggression. Presumably, these players have developed over the years to be accustomed to that level of aggression and have developed the skills to deal with it. The reverse is not the same. The females have been playing against other females and are accustomed to the female level of play and aggression. Females are going to be overpowered by a biological male and not necessarily physically prepared to take the stronger hits from a biological male opponent.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=265) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=267)