# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/542 "2020-06-29T15:31:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This probably would apply to some folks without penises, so that wouldn’t really be exact either. What’s the determining factor, or the correlating factor? Testosterone? Testicles? XY chromosome? Whatever that is would be the best descriptor, IMO. What if you don’t know? You just know that looking at the data that biological males tend to be vitamin D deficient. Is there no value to publishing a study like the one I linked to without knowing which factors are important? Would you not like to know that people with your sex class are prone to a vitamin deficiency so you can be diligent about it, even if scientists can’t explain exactly why? If you were a doctor and one of your patients was a transwoman of a certain age, would you refrain from telling her about the results of this research? Or would you only tell your cismen clientele about it? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/543 "2020-06-29T15:34:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And I get why she was annoyed. The article was about the challenges women face globally with menstruation. But instead of using the social construct label that describes that group (and has always described that group), we get called “menstruators”. In a narrow discussion of the issues of menstruation, why would you object to the use of the most precise term? You claimed to be concerned principally with categorization for the purposes of academic research. A scientist would certainly choose the most precise term. How are we logically to interpret your view other than seeking to _equate_ womanhood with menstruation, which obviously implies a claim that people who do not menstruate are not women, and that all people who menstruate are women? The social construct label that has historically described that group was _wrong_, just as historical social construct labels that historically sought to subdivide humans into meaningfully different biological races were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/544 "2020-06-29T15:35:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > What if you don’t know? You just know that looking at the data that biological males tend to be vitamin D deficient. > > Is there no value to publishing a study like the one I linked to without knowing which factors are important? Would you not like to know that people with your sex class are prone to a vitamin deficiency so you can be diligent about it, even if scientists can’t explain exactly why? > > If you were a doctor and one of your patients was a transwoman of a certain age, would you refrain from telling her about the results of this research? Or would you only tell your cismen clientele about it? Maybe the descriptor should have been “cis men and trans women and some non-binary people”. I’d follow the data. If trans women are affected, they should be included and informed. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/545 "2020-06-29T15:40:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe the descriptor should have been “cis men and trans women and some non-binary people”. Which non binary people? How are you going to decide which ones to inform? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/546 "2020-06-29T15:42:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Which non binary people? How are you going to decide which ones to inform? Maybe the ones with XY? Maybe the ones with testicles or testosterone? Maybe they’ll be smart enough to figure out if they should take note by the focus on cis men and trans women? Point me towards a non binary person who would be offended by the phrase I suggested, and I’d be happy to have that conversation with them. I’d like to fully understand their concerns and viewpoint, by their own words. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/547 "2020-06-29T15:44:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The article specifically referred to women, girls, and others who menstruate, because this larger category faces shared challenges due to oppression with regards to supplies for menstruation. Because the oppression comes from the gender class. If menstruators were almost exclusively male, there would be no challenges to them acquiring products they need. Whenever I see an article on Reddit about schools providing free sanitary products or governments waiving taxes on sanitary products, there’s always a chorus of commentators (I’m gonna guess they are guys) who scream “ew” and complain about women making a big deal out of nothing. Why? Because men are programmed to think of “female problems” as nasty and stupid and thus unimportant. If they were male problems, it wouldn’t be like this. Tampons would be viewed as no different than toilet paper if menstruation wasn’t seen as a women thing. And the existence of a few male-identifying menstruators isn’t going to change that reality. Like I said, I don’t have a big deal over “menstruators”. I find it a bit cringey, but I find “people of color” kind of cringey too. I don’t even have a problem with its usage in the article that JK Rowling cited. But her argument isn’t THAT crazy, is what I’m saying. I understand what she is saying and I do agree with her that we need to be careful that in our efforts to be all-inclusive, we don’t mask over realities which don’t magically disappear just because Westerners are “woke”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/548 "2020-06-29T15:45:39Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Which non binary people? How are you going to decide which ones to inform? You seem to be inordinately of a line of reasoning that amounts to “it’s complex therefore it’s invalid”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/549 "2020-06-29T15:45:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Because the oppression comes from the gender class. If menstruators were almost exclusively male, there would be no challenges to them acquiring products they need. > > Whenever I see an article on Reddit about schools providing free sanitary products or governments waiving taxes on sanitary products, there’s always a chorus of commentators (I’m gonna guess they are guys) who scream “ew” and complain about women making a big deal out of nothing. Why? Because men are programmed to think of “female problems” as nasty and stupid and thus unimportant. If they were male problems, it wouldn’t be like this. Tampons would be viewed as no different than toilet paper if menstruation wasn’t seen as a women thing. And the existence of a few male-identifying menstruators isn’t going to change that reality. > > Like I said, I don’t have a big deal over “menstruators”. I find it a bit cringey, but I find “people of color” kind of cringey too. I don’t even have a problem with its usage in the article that JK Rowling cited. But her argument isn’t THAT crazy, is what I’m saying. I understand what she is saying and I do agree with her that we need to careful that in our efforts to be all-inclusive, we don’t mask over realities which don’t magically disappear just because Westerners are “woke”. I think much of what JKR wrote was fine. But some of it wasn’t - and I specifically noted those aspects in several earlier posts. And that’s mostly what she’s being criticized for, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/550 "2020-06-29T15:47:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Any such feelings can be valid, depending on the circumstances. But I didn’t object to JKR’s feelings - I objected to her inaccurate and insulting language. But you clearly give more weight to one set of feelings than the other, as here you are advocating to use the terms they prefer, although some people find them inaccurate and insulting, and condemning Rowling for using the terms she prefers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/551 "2020-06-29T15:50:12Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Anyone who has seen the movie Get Out and truly understood the point it was making should have the ability to the see the problem with allowing the identity of a disadvantaged class (female) be appropriated by the more privileged class (males). This dynamic doesn’t go away just because queers are also disadvantaged. I doubt very much [Jordan Peele](https://ew.com/movies/jordan-peele-1-million-donation/) would see things the same way you do… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/552 "2020-06-29T15:51:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But you clearly give more weight to one set of feelings than the other, as here you are advocating to use the terms they prefer, although some people find them inaccurate and insulting, and condemning Rowling for using the terms she prefers. For this specific example, sure - JKR said something factually inaccurate and highly insulting, in response to a very specific and accurate descriptor (and the language of the article specifically used “women and girls”!). It was a dumb quip meant purely as a shot at trans women, and she ended up insulting older women, others without a uterus, and trans men, all at once, and for no reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/553 "2020-06-29T15:52:18Z")
Rowling’s pissed off at Stephen King now. [https://twitter.com/search?q=Rowling&src=trend\_click](https://twitter.com/search?q=Rowling&src=trend_click) He is so awesome. ❤ ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/554 "2020-06-29T16:00:36Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But you clearly give more weight to one set of feelings than the other, as here you are advocating to use the terms they prefer, although some people find them inaccurate and insulting, and condemning Rowling for using the terms she prefers. All moral and ethical choices are in some sense superficially arbitrary. A white supremacist might have a personal preference to reserve the term “human” for white people , but I assume that you’d see no problem in condemning that. If an opinion amounts to bigotry, it’s not bigotry against a person who holds that view to reject the opinion. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/555 "2020-06-29T16:02:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Point me towards a non binary person who would be offended by the phrase I suggested, and I’d be happy to have that conversation with them. I’d like to fully understand their concerns and viewpoint, by their own words. If ciswomen tell you they are offended being referred to as “people with vaginas”, would you be happy to have that conversation with them too? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/556 "2020-06-29T16:03:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For this specific example, sure - JKR said something factually inaccurate and highly insulting, in response to a very specific and accurate descriptor And for every other example we’re asked you about in this thread, no matter how strained or awkward or inaccurate. You prefer ‘some non binary people’, to admitting we are talking about biological males, so clearly you are not so hung up on accuracy. I’ll ask you again, why is it so important not to offend trans people, but cis women’s feelings don’t matter? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/557 "2020-06-29T16:22:51Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It also shows that Orwell was wrong. If you redefine the word for something, it does not remove the concept from people’s brains. They will just find another way to talk about it. Do you think “marriage” is like this? SSM has certainly led to the term “traditional marriage” , apparently to refer to what it meant for most of human history - and what Jeebus intended - a union between a cis man who at least pretends to be straight and cis a woman who at least pretends to be straight. Other than among bigots who use “traditional marriage” as a code word like “family values”, do you think most people persist with this distinct concept for marriage? It turns out that “gender” is something much more complex and diverse than most of us realized even a few years ago. And sure, finding appropriate terminology is sometimes difficult and confusing. None of us here have all the answers, and I have no doubt that the most radical leading edge of trans rights activism has _some_ silly ideas about sensible terminology. But the fact that the reality of gender is complex is no reason to go back to an era when we were simply ignorant and persecuted diversity, just because our grandparents’ simplistic model of gender was _easier_ to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/558 "2020-06-29T16:25:49Z")
If gender and sex weren’t being used interchangeably even in contexts where their separation is important, “females” and “males” would be our go-to terms. But we cannot even agree on who gets to be “female” and “male” anymore. How can folks not see this as a problem? “Male” is a great way of describing people with a male anatomy and physiology. “Cismen, transwomen, and some nonbinary people” is sufficiently woke, but it doesn’t communicate effectively. It spares feelings, but it doesn’t communicate why those individuals are being grouped together in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/559 "2020-06-29T16:31:34Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > Rowling’s pissed off at Stephen King now. [https://twitter.com/search?q=Rowling&src=trend\_click](https://twitter.com/search?q=Rowling&src=trend_click) > He is so awesome. ❤ And how petty does she come across as… ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/560 "2020-06-29T16:35:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “Male” is a great way of describing people with a male anatomy and physiology. The appropriate term would be “biologically male”, or (depending on context) “assigned male at birth”. Your use of “male” without qualification or context is not “great” because it obviously implies that people without male anatomy are _not_ men. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/561 "2020-06-29T16:38:15Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Do you think “marriage” is like this? SSM has certainly led to the term “traditional marriage” , apparently to refer to what it meant for most of human history - and what Jeebus intended - a union between a cis man who at least pretends to be straight and cis a woman who at least pretends to be straight. Other than among bigots who use “traditional marriage” as a code word like “family values”, do you think most people persist with this distinct concept for marriage? I hadn’t really thought about it. This is really a hijack, but when SSM was being debated in the US I read some arguments for and against (and unlike on this subject I found all the arguments against unconvincing). One of the things I read was an article attempting to explain why some conservatives/religious people were so against it. According to this essay, most liberals see marriage as an equal partnership, with both partners having the same role. So for them (us) extending marriage to gay people doesn’t change the concept of marriage itself. Whereas for lots of conservatives, marriage is a union of two complementary parts, and in that paradigm gay marriage doesn’t make sense, so for them it _would_ mean redefining the term. So perhaps for those people it does work the way I said. They needed a term for their old idea of marriage, and invented one. Or maybe they’re just bigots. I don’t know, this is the first time I ever heard the phrase as meaning ‘non-gay marriage’. Re gender, I’m not saying it’s invalid because it’s complex, I’m saying it’s actually very simple, and if your paradigm is making it complex, that’s a problem with your paradigm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=29)