# J K Rowling and the trans furore
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 38
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/743 "2020-06-30T20:31:50Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> **What is gender dysphoria?**
>
> For some transgender people, the difference between the gender they are thought to be at birth and the gender they know themselves to be can lead to serious emotional distress that affects their health and everyday lives if not addressed. Gender dysphoria is the medical diagnosis for someone who experiences this distress.
>
> Not all transgender people have gender dysphoria. On its own, being transgender is not considered a medical condition. Many transgender people do not experience serious anxiety or stress associated with the difference between their gender identity and their gender of birth, and so may not have gender dysphoria.[/quote]
>
> Bolding mine.
Sorry, I was genuinely unclear on this. I’m aware that some trans people experience minimal-to-no dysphoria, which means they don’t experience the difference between their gender identity and their biology as a source of emotional discomfort. That doesn’t preclude their gender identity having been persistent from a young age. The claim was that there was some significant population of biological men who, out of the blue, up and decide that they’re now women. That’s the claim I was questioning.
---
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/744 "2020-06-30T20:34:33Z")
At least it shouldn’t surprise you that childhood sexual assault is more common in the transmasculine group. Child rapists don’t care what gender the kid identifies as. It would be interesting to know how many of the other crimes occurred pre and post transition.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/745 "2020-06-30T20:37:08Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> I guess we should let cismen use women’s restrooms too.
🙄
---
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/746 "2020-06-30T20:59:34Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Sorry, I was genuinely unclear on this. I’m aware that some trans people experience minimal-to-no dysphoria, which means they don’t experience the difference between their gender identity and their biology as a source of emotional discomfort. That doesn’t preclude their gender identity having been persistent from a young age. The claim was that there was some significant population of biological men who, out of the blue, up and decide that they’re now women. That’s the claim I was questioning.
It’s not ‘deciding’ but the fact that the diagnosis of ‘late onset gender dysphoria’ exists shows that it is not always present from childhood. The way that a majority of kids with gender dysphoria ‘grow out of it’, that for other people it presents in adulthood, and the fact that some elderly trans people with dementia forget that they have transitioned and become distressed at the changes to their bodies/being referred to with different pronouns, make me doubt that this is a fixed and unchanging part of identity. Or maybe it is for some, but not for all.
---
### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/747 "2020-06-30T21:02:48Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The claim was that there was some significant population of biological men who, out of the blue, up and decide that they’re now women. That’s the claim I was questioning.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Honestly, it makes perfect sense to me. Not everyone is deeply attached to their sense of gender. I can totally imagine how a guy might go through life feeling like a misfit and never knowing why. And then one day he reads or hears about the nonbinary identity, and he realizes that “nonbinary woman” fits him better than “man”.
Twenty years ago very few people were calling themselves “nonbinary”. Now it’s getting some currency. There’s no doubt in mind that it will gain more currency, especially among girls who pride themselves on “not being like other girls”. People who in the past were ok being labeled effeminate man or “tomboy” are now making it official by claiming the nonbinary identity.
My problem with it is that “woman” has a pre-existing definition. We can argue about the other stuff all day long, but “woman” has always meant a person who is always a woman. It has never meant "someone who has a certain mental state today, but who might change tomorrow and then back again the next day, depending on their mood. I have a problem with sharing a sociopolitical identity with a person who thinks they can “escape” it whenever they feel like it. I don’t want to be in a women’s support group and have to hear a male-presenting individual patter on about how hard it is on those days they get "femmed’ up. I don’t want to have to indulge someone who thinks “woman” is a costume or an experience.
Note: I don’t have a problem with nonbinary folks. I have a problem with male-bodied nonbinary folks who aren’t female-presenting _all the time_ calling themselves women. If a ciswoman wants to adopt the “nonbinary” identity, OK. You do you, boo. I will still see them as having the sociopolitical identity of “woman”, but I will keep that to myself. But I want to be able to tell a male-bodied nonbinary individual who is claiming “woman” on a particular day that no, they can’t come into my “women-only” space. I’m not going to let them share a dorm room with me, because I don’t want to get naked in front of someone who doesn’t appear to be any different than any other guy. And if someone asks me if someone like this belongs in a women’s prison, I’m going to say no. They are too much on the fringe to be treated like a “woman” in that context in my opinion.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/748 "2020-06-30T21:06:05Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> Why is this so hard to believe?
Because I actually know real trans people, and I have an appreciation for how difficult that life is.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/749 "2020-06-30T21:15:13Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Because I actually know real trans people, and I have an appreciation for how difficult that life is.
How old are you, Miller? Because things have changed a lot. Yes, there is definitely still a lot of prejudice in wider society, but there are also subcultures where trans people get a lot of affirmation, and where the non binary people Monstro mentioned are so common as to be completely unremarkable. If you spend most of your time in one of those bubbles coming out is a very different proposition.
When I was at school, there was a fad for people to (claim to be) bisexual. This was years ago, when there was still plenty of homophobia around, but in that social group kids were doing it just because it was the trendy thing. I’m definitely not saying anyone would claim to be trans so lightly, but that the social environment in a subculture can make a big difference to how hard that life is.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/750 "2020-06-30T21:26:26Z")
Also, I hope you’ll read this about the link between the modern trans movement and homophobia.
> **[Homophobia and the Modern Trans Movement](https://quillette.com/2019/01/31/homophobia-and-the-modern-trans-movement/)**
>
> Sydney. London. Toronto.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/751 "2020-06-30T21:35:18Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> How old are you, Miller? Because things have changed a lot. Yes, there is definitely still a lot of prejudice in wider society, but there are also subcultures where trans people get a lot of affirmation, and where the non binary people Monstro mentioned are so common as to be completely unremarkable. If you spend most of your time in one of those bubbles coming out is a very different proposition.
I live in perhaps the most trans-friendly area on Earth. I know a wide variety of trans people, from a fair sampling of age ranges. I know non-binary people. I don’t know a single person whose gender non-conformance did not present a significant personal struggle. Even here it is very difficult to move entirely within a trans-friendly bubble. Not without severely limiting your lifestyle, at least.
This is, of course, anecdote, not data. But I think actual, existing human beings is a better way to frame this conversation than, “What if Joe Biden came out as trans?”
---
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/752 "2020-06-30T21:39:09Z")
From an interview with the gender fluid bank director who was listed as one of the top 50 female champions of women in business:
> [@](#):
>
> While I was worried on my first day, Christophe — my amazing boss at the time, who has sadly now passed way — made such a difference in making it clear to me that he and the entire firm were fully supportive.
>
> There were quite a few weeks where I felt quite anxious, because you would feel that people are looking at you, even though you know full well that they support you.
>
> Whether it is from board level down to lower junior levels, it has really surprised me the amount of support and positivity I’ve received. That is something I didn’t expect. It’s still something that people need to get their heads around, but understanding and acceptance is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago.
> **[Transformed: The Credit Suisse director known as Pippa and Philip](https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002)**
>
> An investment bank director and champion of non-binary gender identities talks to Financial News about coming out at a large institution
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/753 "2020-06-30T21:42:32Z")
**iiandyiiii** and **Miller** , y’all posted the same article. Can you really not understand the part below says more about the risks to being female than being a trans man? Especially the part in bold.
> > That study shows that transmasculine individuals were actually more likely to be **victims of childhood sexual assault** , adult sexual assault, dating violence, domestic violence, and stalking than were transfeminine individuals (as shown in the chart below).
The problem with this article is that it’s describing abuse that often occurs well before a person decides to transition, creating the impression these are challenges incurred by being trans rather than comes with being female. This matters a lot because there is growing evidence that childhood abuse, neglect, maltreatment, and physical or sexual abuse are actually risk factors for gender dysphoria. Meaning, victims of abuse may be more likely to transition than those who haven’t,
Consider that this is where JKR is coming from with her concerns. If girls being abused predisposes them to dysphoria, which leads them to transition, this is a public health concern.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/754 "2020-06-30T21:44:31Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Also, I hope you’ll read this about the link between the modern trans movement and homophobia.
Did you think there was anything in there I didn’t know about? Yeah, there are homophobes in the trans community. And there are transphobes in the gay community. Nobody ever said there weren’t assholes in either group.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/755 "2020-06-30T21:46:58Z")
> [@YWTF](#):
>
> Can you really not understand the part below says more about the risks to being female than being a trans man? Especially the part in bold.
>
> > > That study shows that transmasculine individuals were actually more likely to be **victims of childhood sexual assault** , adult sexual assault, dating violence, domestic violence, and stalking than were transfeminine individuals (as shown in the chart below).
>
> The problem with this article is that it’s describing abuse that often occurs well before a person decides to transition, creating the impression these are challenges incurred by being trans rather than comes with being female. This matters a lot because there is growing evidence that childhood abuse, neglect, maltreatment, and physical or sexual abuse are actually risk factors for gender dysphoria. Meaning, victims of abuse may be more likely to transition than those who haven’t,
>
> Consider that this is where JKR is coming from with her concerns. If girls being abused predisposes them to dysphoria, which leads them to transition, this is a public health concern.
I’d agree that this would be a public health concern, if this is accurate. I’m unconvinced the data supports this as any more than a teeny-tiny portion of those with gender dysphoria, but this isn’t the problem I have with what JKR wrote. You’re probably sick of hearing me specifically criticize those things that I think she was wrong to say, so I won’t repeat them again here.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/756 "2020-06-30T21:50:04Z")
You bolded one of five categories. The other four, for those keeping score at home, were:
**adult** sexual assault
dating violence
domestic violence
stalking
None of those describe assaults that are likely to happen to children.
---
### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/757 "2020-06-30T21:52:41Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Because I actually know real trans people, and I have an appreciation for how difficult that life is.
People claim membership to oppressed classes _all the time_. White folks have historically glomed on to the Native American identity, because it’s fun having an “exotic” heritage without having to incur any of the pain that comes along with it. People exaggerate or fabricate disabilities or disorders out of a need to be a special snowflake. Seems like everyone I know has ADHD. Am I obligated to believe they do since ADHD is such a horrible thing to have? Or am I allowed to have my doubts?
Young people in particular crave identity. When everyone seems to be in a club, there will be pressure to be in a club. We have a very diverse population of 20-somethings. You’ve got categories for _everything_ now and a subreddit devoted to each one. And on those subreddits, you’ve got people encouraging you to join their ranks. The incels want you to identify as incel even if you had a girlfriend at band camp last year, because only Chads have a girlfriend all the time. The underachieving 30-somethings who are still living with parents want you to identify as one of them because they need to know they aren’t the only ones who are miserable. And you’ve got nonbinary folks doing their recruitment. I’ve seen young people on reddit who have accumulated a paragraph full of identities like kids back in the day used to collect Garbage Pail Kids cards. And they aren’t shy about talking about how hard it is to be a vegan, gluten-free Wiccan, virginal body-positive asexual furry NEET who has a formal diagnosis of autism and a self-diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder. It’s really not a big deal for a person like this to throw “transgender” or “nonbinary” onto that big pile of identities. They want _hardship_–or at least the illusion thereof. It gives them a story to talk about.
It is possible that I’ve been hanging out at Reddit for too long.
I have a niece who identifies as nonbinary. I don’t know how I feel about it. I mean, I have no basis to deny her claim, and I’m going to respect it. She probably really does feel “ambivalent” about gender. But I know she’s obese girl with a food addiction who struggles with social and emotional communication (like her auntie). I know she has eclectic interests that don’t fit the stereotypical “black girl” mode. So I wonder if her “nonbinaryness” is less about gender and more about coming up with a way of describing her general oddballness so that people don’t judge her too harshly. I do sympathize with this. But I question the validity of a gender identity founded on “oddballness.”
---
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/758 "2020-06-30T21:58:55Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I live in perhaps the most trans-friendly area on Earth. I know a wide variety of trans people, from a fair sampling of age ranges. I know non-binary people. I don’t know a single person whose gender non-conformance did not present a significant personal struggle. Even here it is very difficult to move entirely within a trans-friendly bubble. Not without severely limiting your lifestyle, at least.
>
> This is, of course, anecdote, not data. But I think actual, existing human beings is a better way to frame this conversation than, “What if Joe Biden came out as trans?”
If we’re doing anecdote, most of the trans people I know are furries, and they’d probably take issue with the idea that identifying as an animal is any less valid than identifying as a different sex. The furry subculture is very supportive, but I don’t know what they might be dealing with in other areas of their lives.
I use their preferred pronouns, and I wouldn’t say this to any of them, but the truth is I don’t believe the transwomen I know from that group are ‘really’ women. They all have very male-typical interests and hobbies, they talk like men, act like men, and they have sex lives like men. So far as I know they have no interest in ‘women’s issues’. So I’m not talking hypothetically when I say transwomen may have little in common with cis women, and this personal experience definitely influences my views on the topic.
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### Author:  [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/759 "2020-06-30T22:00:50Z")
The article also had some truth stretching, for example the “lesbians who were banned for wearing uterus shirts” were also, according to their own account, carrying placards with quotes by people they thought were unfairly canceled for transphobia. Their defense hinges a lot on trans people not being real, including such TERFy language like “trans-identified males”
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### Author:  [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/760 "2020-06-30T22:02:01Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> > [@monstro](#):
> >
> > I guess we should let cismen use women’s restrooms too.
>
> 🙄
At our house every washroom is all gender inclusive.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/761 "2020-06-30T22:04:18Z")
> [@YWTF](#):
>
> Of course it doesn’t! You’re a man. The Orwellian prospect of “woman” becoming an identity that has been appropriated by opportunistic predators is something that wouldn’t affect you. But it would most certainly affect me and all my female loved ones, including my daughters. It’s not your rights or existence on the line, so congratulations. You have the privilege of pondering this like it’s a theoretical exercise.
>
> Like, it is seriously bugging me that this even needs to be explained.
It doesn’t need to be explained. This isn’t theoretical for me. My wife is furious with Rowling. Several cis-female friends have posted their disgust with her. And someone who claims to be a man is claiming the same gender as me. So your idea that it’s theoretical for me is flat-out wrong.
Now, the _harm_ you’re claiming? I’m not seeing that, so to the extent that things that I can’t see are theoretical, I guess that is; but in the same way it’s theoretical to me, it’d be theoretical to my women friends who are pissed at Rowling.
---
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/762 "2020-06-30T22:04:21Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Did you think there was anything in there I didn’t know about? Yeah, there are homophobes in the trans community. And there are transphobes in the gay community. Nobody ever said there weren’t assholes in either group.
If the presence of homophobes in the trans community was all you got from it, you’ve completely missed the point.
> [@](#):
>
> I was born a sissy. I was afraid of competitive sports, and afraid of masculine boys. I got into only one fight as a kid, with a boy named Neil Manley (yes, that was his real name) who punched me and gave me a nosebleed. I didn’t fight back. I used to knit clothes for my sister’s Barbie dolls. And I was deeply resentful that she took ballet and I wasn’t allowed.
>
> If someone had told me as a child that I could actually _be_ a little girl, I would have jumped at the chance. Anything to escape the pressure cooker of an active boyhood crammed full of sports and rough play.
> [@](#):
>
> The old paradigm presented effeminate men as homosexuals who could be cured of their sexual desires. The new paradigm presents effeminate boys as children who can be cured by declaring them girls. And since we have (falsely) decided that their sexuality is irrelevant because they are children and because gender has no relationship to sexuality, proponents can make their case without discussing the off-putting issue of sexual urges. Each child must be raised according to what the child perceives to be their “true gender.”
> [@](#):
>
> As Canadian sexual neuroscience PhD Debra Soh has [written](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/dont-treat-all-cases-of-gender-dysphoria-the-same-way/article37711831/), longitudinal studies of gender dysphoric children show that in a majority of cases, non-transitioning children “desist upon reaching puberty and grow up to be gay.” While there is ongoing [debate](https://theconversation.com/why-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-is-bad-science-92742) about what studies should and should not be included in such analyses, the argument for caution—as opposed to aggressive affirmation—needs to be part of the public discussion. And one of the reasons it isn’t, I believe, is that the unspoken homophobia embedded within the most uncompromising strains of trans activism exerts itself on our nominally progressive society.
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