# J K Rowling and the trans furore
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 39
### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/763 "2020-06-30T22:05:21Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> None of those describe assaults that are likely to happen to children.
All of these things happen to females significantly more than males.
Trans men inhabit female bodies. While they may think their gender identity protects them from the ravages of being female, it often doesn’t.
And I know of females who don’t transition until their 30s or 40s. If you can’t see that equates to 30-40 years of potential female-targeted abuse, I don’t know what to tell except that your sexist bias is showing again.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/764 "2020-06-30T22:29:34Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> If the presence of homophobes in the trans community was all you got from it, you’ve completely missed the point.
…can you maybe stop quoting from an article that was published on a site that is very well known as an alt-right publication that is well known for publishing dis-information, racism, islamophobia and misogyny, and is [extremely popular with white nationalists?](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette)
And maybe also realize that a single anecdote can be important, it is just an anecdote, and not necessarily representative of more than a single opinion? And can you also recognize that there is a complex relationship between many in the Drag community and many in the transgender community (in North America/Canada) that is completely absent in this article, and that you are missing a lot of the nuance as well as the bigger picture?
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/765 "2020-06-30T22:36:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …can you maybe stop quoting from an article that was published on a site that is very well known as an alt-right publication that is well known for publishing dis-information, racism, islamophobia and misogyny, and is [extremely popular with white nationalists?](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette)
No. I’m not into censorship. If the ideas are bad we should debate them on their merits, not pretend they don’t exist.
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> And maybe also realize that a single anecdote can be important, it is just an anecdote, and not necessarily representative of more than a single opinion? And can you also recognize that there is a complex relationship between many in the Drag community and many in the transgender community (in North America/Canada) that is completely absent in this article, and that you are missing a lot of the nuance as well as the bigger picture?
I think I have some idea of this ‘complex relationship’, but if you want to link an article explaining the nuance and bigger picture I’ll be happy to read it.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/766 "2020-06-30T22:43:15Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> People claim membership to oppressed classes _all the time_ . White folks have historically glomed on to the Native American identity, because it’s fun having an “exotic” heritage without having to incur any of the pain that comes along with it.
I think you overestimate how easy it is to claim trans identity without also incurring the pain that comes with identifying as trans. Sure, there are things like a particular subreddit where someone can claim trans identity and gain some social cachet, but that only lasts as long as you’re online. When you take that outside, it’s a lot less rosy.
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/767 "2020-06-30T22:44:54Z")
**Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness**
> It doesn’t need to be explained. This isn’t theoretical for me. My wife is furious with Rowling.
This is the gender ideology version of “some of my best friends are black”.
Except worse. Because in this very thread we’ve been talking about men speaking for women as female proxies…and you’re kind of doing that. Like, how does what you wrote even make sense? Your wife is furious at Rowling…so this means concocting a ludicrously circular definition for woman is just peachy?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/768 "2020-06-30T22:47:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> If the presence of homophobes in the trans community was all you got from it, you’ve completely missed the point
I get the point he’s making. I’m also dismissing it. The are assholes in every group of people. That he was able to identify some asshole trans people isn’t evidence of an ideological bias against gay people in the trans rights movement.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/769 "2020-06-30T22:51:16Z")
> [@YWTF](#):
>
> Except worse. Because in this very thread we’ve been talking about men speaking for women as female proxies…and you’re kind of doing that. Like, how does what you wrote even make sense? Your wife is furious at Rowling…so this means concocting a ludicrously circular definition for woman is just peachy?
No, his wife is furious at Rowling, which undercuts your claim that trans rights are something only supported by men.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/770 "2020-06-30T22:51:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> No. I’m not into censorship. If the ideas are bad we should debate them on their merits, not pretend they don’t exist.
…suggesting that you stopped posting disinformation from a hate-site isn’t “censorship.”
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> I think I have some idea of this ‘complex relationship’
Nah. I don’t think that you do.
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> but if you want to link an article explaining the nuance and bigger picture I’ll be happy to read it
I won’t link to an article. I’ll link to what [Una\_Persson said on these very boards.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/2) Its a complex and nuanced issue. Its seen very differently (in NZ) than it is in much of North America. I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with Una’s point. But Quillette published that article for a reason.
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### Author:  [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/771 "2020-06-30T23:05:04Z")
**Miller**
> No, his wife is furious at Rowling, which undercuts your claim that trans rights are something only supported by men.
No, he’s _saying_ his wife is furious. Even if it is true that she is, it doesn’t change the fact that because he’s not a woman, he can look at this from the cavalier viewpoint of a member of the more privileged sex class.
You know, the same sex class that disproportionately victimizes trans women, trans men, and cis women. Makes total sense we’d give this group rights to the word “woman”!
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/772 "2020-06-30T23:08:54Z")
> [@YWTF](#):
>
> No, he’s _saying_ his wife is furious. Even if it is true that she is, it doesn’t change the fact that because he’s not a woman, he can look at this from the cavalier viewpoint of a member of the more privileged sex class.
And he’s what, lying about that? He can’t tell when his wife is angry?
Or is it just that any attempt to challenge your assertion that trans rights are primarily backed by men automatically misogynist?
> [@](#):
>
> You know, the same sex class that disproportionately victimizes trans women, trans men, and cis women. Makes total sense we’d give this sex class rights to the word “woman”!
I like how you just managed to blame trans women for their own sexual assaults.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/773 "2020-06-30T23:12:28Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I get the point he’s making. I’m also dismissing it.
Well I wish you’d explain to me why (subconscious) homophobia wouldn’t ever lead to a preference for a trans child over a gay child. After all, it offers the chance for a cure - once all the hormone treatment surgery is complete, you have a ‘normal’, gender conforming and heterosexual person (even if it doesn’t work out that way in practice).
And it doesn’t bother you that here is yet another adult saying they might have transitioned as a child if it had been an option, and that it would have been a mistake?
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/774 "2020-06-30T23:15:34Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Sure, there are things like a particular subreddit where someone can claim trans identity and gain some social cachet, but that only lasts as long as you’re online. When you take that outside, it’s a lot less rosy.
What I’ve been trying to communicate to you and whomever is lurking is that I don’t fucking care what the venue is. If I’m on Reddit and I’m interacting with some derp who is saying they are a woman but their outlook and opinions scream “I’M A BIG OLE SEXIST MAN”, then I want to be able to tell that mansplaining derp what I think. I want to be able to tell other redditors what I think about that person. If my spidey sense is tingling online or in meatspace, I want to be able to act on it without people immediately concluding I’m a transphobe. If I’m being a transphobe, by all means stop me. But I don’t think snatching up an edgelord up by telling him to the stop with the “As a woman…” stuff is transphobic.
The questionable “woman” online commentator might one day get their opinions published by a reputable media source. They may land a high-profile job and be in the position of influencing other’s thoughts and opinions. I don’t want someone to be able to concoct a creative “inner struggle” narrative and be a voice for _my_ group without being screened and vetted by people from _my_ community. If they want to speak for trans folks or nonbinary folks, they can go right ahead. But I don’t want any Tom, Dick, and Harry to be able to discuss women’s issues or women’s lives without being scrutinized and critiqued in the most effective way. The kind of representation women get really does matter.
Online 'blackface" is a thing. You’ll see people preface anti-black sentiments with “As a black man…” Look at that commentator’s post history and 90% of the time, it’s apparent that they aren’t a black man. You’ll eventually stumble on a post where they “out” themselves as an teenaged Asian girl or something. These people are not harmless. They are influencers. They convince people that even black people think black people are inferior. Or black people are in favor of X, when X is clearly not in black people’s best interests. Not everyone knows actual black people, so people will swallow these kinds of posts and walk away thinking they’ve been informed.
I’m not under the delusion I’ll be able to spot all the false “As a woman…” posts. But if I do spot one, I want to point it out and warn others not to listen, and I don’t want someone to throw gender ideology up in my face to shut me down. As I keep saying, I can do this with all my other identities. I just want to be able to do it with my gender.
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### Author:  [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/775 "2020-06-30T23:21:01Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> The questionable “woman” online commentator might one day get their opinions published by a reputable media source. They may land a high-profile job and be in the position of influencing other’s thoughts and opinions. I don’t want someone to be able to concoct a creative “inner struggle” narrative and be a voice for _my_ group without being screened and vetted by people from _my_ community. If they want to speak for trans folks or nonbinary folks, they can go right ahead. But I don’t want any Tom, Dick, and Harry to be able to discuss women’s issues or women’s lives without being scrutinized and critiqued in the most effective way. The kind of representation women get really does matter.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but is this really a thing? I can’t think of a single example of where a transwoman is held by any kind of mainstream media as speaking for all women in any context. People will always bullshit online, and I don’t care if you call them on their bullshit there (subject to the constraints of the forum, of course), but I think you’re articulating a fear of something here that isn’t real.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/776 "2020-06-30T23:24:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Well I wish you’d explain to me why (subconscious) homophobia wouldn’t ever lead to a preference for a trans child over a gay child. After all, it offers the chance for a cure - once all the hormone treatment surgery is complete, you have a ‘normal’, gender conforming and heterosexual person (even if it doesn’t work out that way in practice).
Because transphobia is far deeper and more virulent than homophobia is in this country. No child is ever going to see transitioning as a safer alternative to coming out as gay - if they’re in an environment where transitioning is a possibility, they’re also in an environment where being homosexual is accepted.
> [@](#):
>
> And it doesn’t bother you that here is yet another adult saying they might have transitioned as a child if it had been an option, and that it would have been a mistake?
Not even slightly. Why should it? He’s comparing the era of homophobic intolerance he grew up in, with a non-existent trans utopia where there is no social cost to identifying as trans. Identifying as trans while young is only an option today, because society has moved so far forward on queer rights in general. If he grew up in today’s environment, there’s a much greater chance that he would have grown up in a gay-accepting environment. There’s a much smaller chance of his growing up in a trans-accepting enviornment. And there’s basically zero chance of growing up in a trans-accepting but homophobic environment.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/777 "2020-06-30T23:31:34Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#):
>
> Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but is this really a thing?
I don’t know if it is a thing _now_. But I don’t want it to be a thing, and I see no reason to think it would never happen given the toxic nature of the discourse. I’m not interested in waiting to see if it will happen.
If enough people jump on the “anyone who says they are a woman is a woman” bandwagon, then I have no doubt that we will see provocateurs, since the media is fueled by sensationalism and controversy. We will have to see if anyone will take the bait, but I think it is inevitable that people will try. I would not put it past a rag like Brietbart to troll like this.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/778 "2020-06-30T23:38:33Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> What I’ve been trying to communicate to you and whomever is lurking is that I don’t fucking care what the venue is. If I’m on Reddit and I’m interacting with some derp who is saying they are a woman but their outlook and opinions scream “I’M A BIG OLE SEXIST MAN”, then I want to be able to tell that mansplaining derp what I think. I want to be able to tell other redditors what I think about that person. If my spidey sense is tingling online or in meatspace, I want to be able to act on it without people immediately concluding I’m a transphobe. If I’m being a transphobe, by all means stop me. But I don’t think snatching up an edgelord up by telling him to the stop with the “As a woman…” stuff is transphobic.
Again, I don’t have a problem with that. I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s going to happen much outside of places like Reddit.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/779 "2020-06-30T23:42:00Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> If enough people jump on the “anyone who says they are a woman is a woman” bandwagon, then I have no doubt that we will see provocateurs, since the media is fueled by sensationalism and controversy. We will have to see if anyone will take the bait, but I think it is inevitable that people will try. I would not put it past a rag like Brietbart to troll like this.
You know that people who advocate trans rights run into this all the time, right? “I say I’m a woman now, so you disagreeing with me is misogynist, hurr hurr hurr.” It’s like page 1 of the Dipshit Playbook.
Amazingly, we don’t immediately lock up like old-school robots encountering a logic error when they pull this.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/780 "2020-06-30T23:46:58Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Again, I don’t have a problem with that. I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s going to happen much outside of places like Reddit.
I know you don’t because for some reason you seem to be having a rosier view of humanity than I do. You can see a world that is dangerous for gays and trans, but you have a blindspot that keeps you from seeing that ciswomen are living in that same exact world and that we’re dealing with the same hateful people. The hateful people just express their hate differently depending on the target. I’m not worried about the violent forms of oppression, which is why I ain’t got no problems with transwomen sharing my restroom. I’m worried about the political forms of oppression. Because that is more insidious, it is easier to dismiss and handwave away by those who don’t have any skin in the game.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2020, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/781 "2020-06-30T23:56:44Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Amazingly, we don’t immediately lock up like old-school robots encountering a logic error when they pull this.
You aren’t a woman, so maybe that’s why you don’t lock up like a old-school robot. Maybe if you were a person who had come into their womanhood at a time when women told they were nothing but baby incubators with child-like intellects, you wouldn’t be able to laugh at trolls. Maybe it would even be traumatic for you.
It’s really not that “amazing” to me. It’s pretty obvious to me why you can be so fucking cavalier while others simply cannot be.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/782 "2020-07-01T00:20:43Z")
Sorry, I can only take the seriousness of someone writing a _dishonest op-ed piece_ so far.
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