# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1043 "2020-07-04T11:47:53Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > Trans people are _people_ , and as people who can typically read the emotions of other people, we have the ability to sense just how uncomfortable we make those around us. I don’t like going into either restroom! Most of us don’t! Thanks for sharing your experiences. You are correct that trans people are people. That means there is a lot of diversity in behaviors and personalities within this group. We have to be careful not to give in to overgeneralization, and that goes for both sides of the debate. What are your thoughts on sports? I think this issue has been essentially ignored relative to the exaggerated attention we give restrooms (and again, that goes for both sides). Are you sympathetic to concerns about female access to athletic opportunities when they are required to play against males? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1044 "2020-07-04T12:04:34Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > People keep talking about the demands of the trans community and “trans ideology”. I don’t recall having a vote or electing a representative. I’m talking about the demands made by groups and charities like Stonewall (LGBT group), Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence (charities aimed at helping trans children and young people). I don’t know if the majority of their members agree, but any trans people that don’t are probably just as afraid to speak up as J K Rowling was. These groups are well funded and influential, and have got most liberals to agree to their message, as you can see in this discussion. They also create literature for schools. > [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > I don’t want to be in a prison with Karen White either! I hate how I’m equated to the one of the worst trans people in existence. Is it acceptable to do this to other minorities? I think this is something that maybe these charities, and most trans people haven’t considered. Removing all gatekeeping allows these criminals and other unsavoury types to be part of your group, and the reforms they are pushing for would indeed put you in prison with Karen White. I see no way to avoid that except by deciding on a case by case basis. Pretty sure that this happens to other minorities, yes. 1. I agree it’s society’s problem as much as yours. For your locker room example, I think we need some individual changing spaces, which would also be useful for parents with opposite sex kids. Of course that costs money whereas changing the rules is free, so you know which companies would prefer. And I’m sure most trans people just want to get on with their lives without bothering anyone else, but every group of people contains some shitheads and creepers and trouble makers, and I don’t want to make it so we can’t deal with them. To me it seems very plausible that a gym would tell women to ignore the exhibitionist with a penis acting inappropriately in the locker room, rather than risk falling foul of equalities legislation or arousing the twitter mob. Even if they in fact had every right to throw this person out. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1045 "2020-07-04T12:05:31Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > 1. Regarding “people who menstruate”: When talking about menstrual health, the phrase “people who menstruate” is appropriate. Transmen on testosterone lose the ability to menstruate. Transwomen do not menstruate. Whatever that website or bulletin had to say does not target them. Being hyper-specific in these cases is important! I’m fortunate that I know what healthcare I need. A lot of trans people do not. The majority of _doctors_ do not. It was an article about lack of access to menstrual hygiene products, especially in poor countries (especially because of discrimination against women). Being hyper-specific in that case was just political correctness. It’s doctors who need to know the specifics, rather than articles aimed at the general public. I’m sure you have a much better idea what applies to your individual case than someone writing a web article. My answers based on NHS recommendations, which are way more conservative about screening than US ones: a. Yes if you have symptoms eg of an enlarged prostate, and a vaginal examination might also be a possibility. b. No, because the benefits vs drawbacks of screening haven’t been proven in any group, and the risk of prostate cancer is likely lower with reduced testosterone. c. I’m going with yes due to age and breast tissue, but actual benefit would depend on what hormones you have taken when and is kind of an unknown. d. No, because no cervix. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1046 "2020-07-04T12:24:21Z")
I do agree with you on this. But I was thinking about how many times as an adult I’ve been in a non-sexual non-medical situation where I saw the naked genitals, breasts or buttocks of an adult other than an intimate partner. The answer I came up with was zero. I’ve worked in blue collar jobs, places where you changed clothes before work in locker rooms. I never saw anyone undress beyond bra and underpants. Every gym/spa locker room I’ve been in as an adult has private showers and some sort of private cubicles for dressing and undressing. I know people sometimes use public restrooms as changing rooms but I’ve never seen anyone not use the stalls for that. Both gay and straight women use the same restroom and changing room facilities all the time without issue, even though many women would be understandably uncomfortable undressing in front of someone that might find them sexually attractive. Yet it’s never become an issue as far as I know. I think that’s because most facilities are designed with enough privacy that people aren’t getting naked in front of each other. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1047 "2020-07-04T12:58:52Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And I’m sure most trans people just want to get on with their lives without bothering anyone else, but every group of people contains some shitheads and creepers and trouble makers, and I don’t want to make it so we can’t deal with them. To me it seems very plausible that a gym would tell women to ignore the exhibitionist with a penis acting inappropriately in the locker room, rather than risk falling foul of equalities legislation or arousing the twitter mob. Even if they in fact had every right to throw this person out. This is hateful stereotyping poisoning the argument and exactly what I’ve been pushing back against. I’m sure if I undressed in my gym locker room, laid down on that bench in front of the lockers and began masturbating, I would be unhesitatingly removed with prejudice and probably arrested. The fact that I was a woman and “belonged there” would not give anyone one second’s worth of hesitation. And I think that it is totally completely and ridiculously implausibly that some trans women would start masturbating in a locker room and that the reaction would be that she’s allowed and everyone else has to watch or leave. You are just trying to advance the narrative that the world needs to be protected from deviant trans people, and that little alt-right trick of throwing out “I’m sure most of them would never do that” at the end of your little trans-masturbation fantasy doesn’t make it better. This is Fox News right wing fear-mongering at its worst. It’s right up there with that wedding planner that was scared of gay weddings because she thought the participants might fuck on the altar. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1048 "2020-07-04T12:59:52Z")
@Ann_Hedonia > I was thinking about how many times as an adult I’ve been in a non-sexual non-medical situation where I saw the naked genitals, breasts or buttocks of an adult other than an intimate partner. > The answer I came up with was zero. The answer I came up with was plenty of times. In most office buildings that have fitness rooms for employees, space for locker rooms is pretty limited. There isn’t a whole lot of luxury for privacy. Few people want to undress in the toilet stalls (where fecal bacteria is contaminating everything). Every time I’ve use those spaces, not only do I expect to see naked parts, I usually do see naked parts. Shower stalls are also not a given. I have showered within sight of other naked women before. It would have been a different experience sharing that space with a naked man. I’m not saying I would have heart palpitations or anything, but it would certainly put me in a different state of mind. 99% of the times I’ve been completely naked around men, it means sex is about to down. So instead of being able to focus on showering, I’ll be trying to push thoughts of sexual activity out of my mind. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Both gay and straight women use the same restroom and changing room facilities all the time without issue, even though many women would be understandably uncomfortable undressing in front of someone that might find them sexually attractive. Yet it’s never become an issue as far as I know. I think that’s because most facilities are designed with enough privacy that people aren’t getting naked in front of each other. Strangers don’t know each other’s sexual orientations, though. Could a lesbian be checking me out in the shower? Sure? But I’m not going to feel self-conscious unless I see a woman ogling me. I will feel self-conscious around a man (even if he isn’t ogling me) because I’ve been socialized to associate my naked body + naked men —\> sexual congress. Not even my father or brother have seen me naked since I turned 5 years old. If it would be weird around _them_, why wouldn’t it feel weird around a male stranger? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1049 "2020-07-04T13:06:43Z")
Wow. You’ve see the genitals of your same sex coworkers? I don’t think I could handle that, I’m glad I live in my world and not yours, ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1050 "2020-07-04T13:14:58Z")
That’s not even the worse of it. I’ve deployed with colleagues before and used latrines with zero privacy. Just a row of exposed toilets that you had to use out in the open. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1051 "2020-07-04T13:21:05Z")
I’m not talking about someone lying down and masterbating. Men - and women and non-binary people with penises - get erections. Frequently in the presence of naked women. Men flash women in parks and send women dick pics to get their jollies. Someone who looks like a man when naked does not have to be full on masterbating to make women feel extremely uncomfortable - many men are capable of doing this and getting away with it while fully clothed. That’s what I’m worried about, not an implausible Fox news scenario. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1052 "2020-07-04T13:41:17Z")
I have been to public nude beaches, open to everyone, and did not encounter any erect penes (let alone anyone masturbating!!) Come to think of it, I do not know what formal rules there are about it, if any, but as you can imagine it would not be well-received, and anyone getting “excited” had better turn onto their stomach or something until the moment passes. There were mixed-sex groups of friends standing around chatting; obviously anyone uncomfortable with the concept stayed away from the nude beach. Locker rooms at the gym I frequent are single-sex, but there otherwise isn’t any privacy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1053 "2020-07-04T13:53:24Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > Putting me in a male prison would be a death sentence. I’d like to say that I’d be OK with prison assignment being based on a case-by-case decision that involved criminal history and risk, but I see that being easily abused by the people-in-charge. I don’t have a great solution for this, but a no-questions-asked “put people based on birth sex” policy is fucked up. This is kind of off topic, but has to be said; much of the reason the question of prisons has no easy answer here is because the entire way we have prisons at all is utterly insane. It’s medieval, cruel, and a gigantic and epic waste of human beings, financial resources, and opportunity. Asking what the best approach for transgender people in the prison system is is like asking what the best way is to set yourself on fire. **The way prisons work, there isn’t one.** The most common “answer” here is “build a third kind of facility” but spending a villion dollars to stick people in a different concrete dungeon is 99.8% of the same problem. I guess I have a sliver of hope that this issue, the increasing awareness of the prison industrial complex, and the very welcome increased opposition to the cop industrial complex might lead to change. But it’s just a sliver. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1054 "2020-07-04T17:32:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is kind of off topic, but has to be said; much of the reason the question of prisons has no easy answer here is because the entire way we have prisons at all is utterly insane. Yeah, any discussion of reducing sexual assault in prisons isn’t going to mean much when the largest group of predators in the system are [the guards themselves.](https://www.propublica.org/article/guards-may-be-responsible-for-half-of-prison-sexual-assaults) ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1055 "2020-07-04T19:08:21Z")
I came across this report from the UN, of all freaking places. This is how they define gender. > All persons have some form of gender identity. **Gender identity refers to each person’s deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender** , which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body and other gender expressions, including **dress, speech and mannerisms**. 1. If this is what they are defining as gender identity, the first sentence is lie. I don’t have a “deeply felt internal” anything. I have a body that has female organs and parts. 2. This second sentence is tainted with circularity. “Gender identity refers to…gender”. It is scary to see illogical statements communicated in broad daylight by organizations that should be intelligent enough to know a fallacy when they see one. 3. So gender is about “dress, speech, and mannerisms”. Okay. Regressive as hell, but okay. Help me understand why these things merit having males playing against females in women’s sports? And why do I get the feeling that “dress, speech, and mannerisms” is another way of saying a woman is a person who wears a dress and giggles a lot? What else am I supposed to infer from this that is _not_ sexist af? How much more of this will we have to take before the people defending it realize their grave mistake? > **[GenderIdentityReport\_SOGI.pdf](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/SexualOrientation/GenderIdentityReport_SOGI.pdf)** > > 2017.07 KB ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1056 "2020-07-04T19:46:34Z")
I agree that the definition is potentially problematic. I don’t think everyone has a gender identity, just like I don’t think everyone has a racial identity or an ethnic identity. We all have a gender, racial, and ethnic label that is assigned to us by others. But not all of us have a deeply felt anything. I don’t know what gender is if it isn’t the same thing as sex. That said, I just know that a whole lot of people believe they have a gender identity. And I somehow know what people mean by it (sorta kinda) even if the concept is hard to define with words. So given that we have a shitload of people who believe that 1) gender identity is real and that 2) it doesn’t always align with one’s biology, what do we do? Do we insist that gender identity isn’t real since not all individuals have it? Do we insist that dress, speech, and manners aren’t a big part of gender expression since believing as much give credence to harmful stereotypes? Do we tell people that those things don’t matter even as we subconsciously and consciously conform to those patterns and encourage our children to conform to those patterns? It’s complicated, yo! I mean, everything you say is valid, and yet _we aren’t going to go back to the olden days_. We simply aren’t going to back to the model that posits that the genders are solely defined by their reproductive parts. There are simply way too many people who defy that model, reject that model, and are harmed by that model. Politically speaking, gender identity really is _real_ and it needs to be addressed politically. I totally agree that it is bullshit to make sports “gender identity” segregated rather than sex segregated. I think we have enough intelligence to sort athletes into the sex categories that make the most sense while being compassionate towards individuals who are in the “gray” (like Castor Semenya, who I think was totally abused by the system). And I can think we can continue this “reasonably woke” approach with other venues, like prisons. I just don’t think being “reasonably woke” requires us to call all the rhetoric bullshit or useless. Policy doesn’t have to be 100% rational and steeped in facts to be of value. What matters is that it results in more benefits than harm. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1057 "2020-07-04T20:47:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So given that we have a shitload of people who believe that 1) gender identity is real and that 2) it doesn’t always align with one’s biology, what do we do? Do we insist that gender identity isn’t real since not all individuals have it? Do we insist that dress, speech, and manners aren’t a big part of gender expression since believing as much give credence to harmful stereotypes? Do we tell people that those things don’t matter even as we subconsciously and consciously conform to those patterns and encourage our children to conform to those patterns? It’s complicated, yo! I mean, everything you say is valid, and yet _we aren’t going to go back to the olden days_. We have a ton of people who believe vaccines cause autism. They will likely continue beating their drum even when there’s one for COVID-19. Do we allow them to persist in their beliefs, even when those beliefs contribute to preventable illnesses? Or do we try our best to point out the flaws in their thinking so that they might reconsider ideology that they are treating as scientific fact? People still think wearing masks to prevent COVID-19 unfairly infringes upon their civil liberties. They think masks don’t do anything real. Should we just shrug and let these people speak and influence others to not wear masks? History is riddled with examples of people sincerely believing the wrong things. I’m not sure that, by itself, means anything. The solution is to point out the wrong. And not just wrong but harmfully wrong. I’m not asking to go back to the olden days. Jesus, I just want scientific reason to prevail. The message that impressionable people are getting is that if they don’t conform to the gender norms of their birth sex, then their mind must be discordant with their bodies. That somehow their body is wrong, rather than the chain of thoughts that led them to that conclusion. “Dress, speech, and mannerisms” promotes this kind of thinking. Someone needs to be the voice of reason saying men are entitled to have whatever “dress, speech, and mannerisms” they want without raising questions about their gender identity. These aren’t exclusive to women nor do they make people women. If we can’t push back against this without being labeled hateful and transphobic, then in the future, it’s likely the group of people called men will be “people whose personalities match manly stereotypes” and women will be “people whose personalities match womanly stereotypes”. We won’t be living in the kind of society that produced men like David Bowie and women like KD Lang, and the LGB community will be a shadow of its former self. Everyone who chooses to shrug while this happens will own this outcome. I will not be. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1058 "2020-07-04T21:23:22Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Someone needs to be the voice of reason saying men are entitled to have whatever “dress, speech, and mannerisms” they want without raising questions about their gender identity. These aren’t exclusive to women nor to they make people women. But you can be a voice of reason without bashing the whole framework. You can go along with some of the bullshit because you recognize it is not a big deal in the big scheme of things, while ensuring their are safeguards to keep that bullshit from taking on a mind of its own and being harmful. As long as we have other criteria for “female” or “woman” beyond “person who wears feminine clothing and says they are a woman” in contexts where it matters (like sports, scientific research, or the prison system), then it doesn’t matter if “dress, speech, and mannerisms” are enscribed in the UN’s definition of gender identity. You are entitled to think “dress, speech, and mannerisms” are not the substance of gender. But other people are free to define it that way. What does it matter, as long as we make sure that it isn’t the end-all, be-all criterion? Your dogmatic position is reminding me of all the “I thought race isn’t real?” stuff that we hear from conservatives who are tired of race politics. While it is true that race isn’t a biological reality, that doesn’t make it not real. As long as people act like it’s real, then it might as well be real. A person who insists that “race isn’t real” is ignoring this fact. Often, they are in the privileged position to not have to care so much what happens when race is ignored. They don’t know how it feels to be treated some kind of way because of their race. You are someone who doesn’t know how it feels to be treated some kind of way because your gender expression (if that’s more palatable to you than “identity”) is different than your biological sex. So of course ‘gender identity’ is a nebulous concept for you. That doesn’t make you smarter or more rational than all the other people who disagree with you, though. It means that your experience is simply different from other people’s. It may be that one day science shows that there’s something to this “gender identity” stuff. We don’t have to wait until that day to help people feel better about themselves, though. And we don’t have to go overboard and harm others while we’re waiting for it either. I don’t enjoy being the “moderate” in this discussion because I know that makes me appear wishy-washy. I just think the problem is that everyone on the extremes are convinced that they are right for no good reason. One side thinks they are morally right and the other side thinks they are scientifically right. But both of them extremes. The extremes are both harmful IMHO. And politically speaking, I think it is stupid to think we’re going to reach a consensus around either extreme. I’d rather have a compromise so that we can make positive changes that benefit damn-near everyone rather than be “scientifically right” and not be able to do anything at all because no one–not even other scientists–gives a fuck about being scientifically right all the time. But YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1059 "2020-07-04T22:37:01Z")
**monstro** > But you can be a voice of reason without bashing the whole framework. You can go along with some of the bullshit because you recognize it is not a big deal in the big scheme of things, while ensuring their are safeguards to keep that bullshit from taking on a mind of its own and being harmful. Or I could not play along and focus on what I’ve focusing on in this thread. Policy. I only bash the framework where I seeing harmful policies. > As long as we have other criteria for “female” or “woman” beyond “person who wears feminine clothing and says they are a woman” in contexts where it matters (like sports, scientific research, or the prison system), then it doesn’t matter if “dress, speech, and mannerisms” are enscribed in the UN’s definition of gender identity. I disagree strenuously with this. It makes no sense to treat “dress, speech, and mannerisms” as a social justice issue on par with women’s rights, gay rights, and civil rights for non-whites. It doesn’t make sense that people are losing their jobs and being pilloried in the press over saying sex is real when all we’re talking about is “dresses, speech, and mannerisms”. None of this is making any sense. > Your dogmatic position is reminding me of all the “I thought race isn’t real?” stuff that we hear from conservatives who are tired of race politics. I believe woman should be defined using biological criteria consistent with how we label other sexually reproducing female animals. If this is dogma, so too is believing an atom is the basic unit of chemical element or that velocity is the rate of change of an object’s position relative to a frame of reference. How the fuck have we gotten to the point that it’s controversial to say this? Trans women are 100% valid, regardless of what they look like. They deserve rights and protections. I want them to have medical access to relieve gender dysphoria. Society should provide reasonable accommodations for their needs. Socially, they should be treated as their preferred gender. With all of this that I’m saying should occur, why is it necessary for me to also profess a belief that I don’t have—that woman means something other simply being an adult human female? It’s funny (and hurtful) you are trying to shush me, as if people are not entitled to have a scientifically supported opinion about how nature is organized anymore. I’m logging off for a while because I’m getting that fever dream feeling again. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1060 "2020-07-04T22:56:54Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I believe woman should be defined using biological criteria consistent with how we label other sexually reproducing female animals. If this is dogma, so too is believing an atom is the basic unit of chemical element or that velocity is the rate of change of object’s position relative to frame of reference. How the fuck have we gotten to the point that it’s controversial to say this? I think “female” does what you’re looking for, though. So what do you gain by insisting that women have vaginas, when we have another word we can use that not only says the same thing, but it is actually consistent with how we talk about other animals? I think most people will agree with you that “female” needs to have an objective, concrete definition that is totally independent of “dress, speech, and mannerisms.” If we can get everyone to agree that female = people with female reproductive parts, then \*why does it matter that “women” connotes a person who has certain “dress, speech, and mannerisms”? I don’t want a circular definition of “woman”, but I can also acknowledge the political reality that woman is no longer always synomous with “biological female”. Just cuz Mirriam-Webster hasn’t caught up with the times doesn’t mean Mirriam-Webster has the last say on the matter. You can get yourself worked up all you want over what “woman” means. Me? I’ll be using “female” when it makes sense to do so and “women” when it makes sense to do so and not worrying so much about what’s in the damn dictionary. I’ve got better things to do (all those skirts and dresses need ironing!) than to get bent out of shape over all the weird definitions that are out there. I’m not trying to shush you. I’m just puzzled what you think the end game is with all of your complaints. Do you just want to be right and not care that no one else is listening to you because you’re making a big deal over stuff that very few people really care about? Or do you want to persuade people to come over to your side so that maybe they will chillax on that “women are people who say they are women” bullshit? You are a pragmatic person, so I can’t imagine that all you want to do is rant and rave without an audience. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1061 "2020-07-05T00:49:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I agree that the definition is potentially problematic. I don’t think everyone has a gender identity, just like I don’t think everyone has a racial identity or an ethnic identity. We all have a gender, racial, and ethnic label that is assigned to us by others. But not all of us have a deeply felt anything. When I was 16, I read an essay by Native American poet/anthropologist (“in that order,” she said) Wendy Rose. She expressed her bemusement at white people who would come up to her and say how much they loved her culture, and then say, “White people don’t have any culture.” Maybe, she suggested, if you’re saying that white people don’t have any culture, and a lot of white people are saying the same thing, _saying that is part of your culture?_ That shit blew my goddamned mind, and I’ve thought about it ever since. It ties into other ideas, about how whiteness is invisible in our culture because it’s the default. A lot of white people don’t hold a deeply-held racial identity, because whiteness is the water we swim in, and we don’t perceive it any more than a fish perceives the ocean. But that doesn’t mean whiteness isn’t a racial identity. Realizing it’s there is a crucial step for a white person to recognize how they’re (I’m) interacting with racist systems. I’m not super into my white identity, any more than I’m super into my male identity. But it’s absolutely there: situating yourself in the complex web of cultural markers is a cultural task that nearly everyone in our culture does. If you’re cis, you might not think you feel deeply about your gender identity, but there’s a good chance that’s because it’s invisible to you: your culture supports that identity in a thousand different tiny ways every day. Some care about it more than others. But if a form asks you to mark whether you’re male or female, I bet you can answer without stopping to think about your genitals. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1062 "2020-07-05T01:52:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Some care about it more than others. But if a form asks you to mark whether you’re male or female, I bet you can answer without stopping to think about your genitals. I totally agree. And I think a lot of people who say they don’t have a gender identity would totally freak out if suddenly they were being treated as the opposite gender. Even if they still had their same private parts. Some folks would get used to it, but others would feel some kind of way about it for the rest of their lives. Whenever I get misgendered, I don’t flip out on the person or anything. But I do think feel some kind of way about it. I feel like the person who has misgendered me isn’t really seeing me. (And usually they aren’t. They’re usually just looking at my general outline without paying attention to my face). One time a female coworker remarked that I’m really a dude (I can’t remember why) and it hurt my feelings even though I don’t have any problems with “dudes” and even though I’ll be the first to say that I am not the picture of femininity. Cuz again, it felt like she wasn’t seeing me the way I see myself. So I know I have a gender identity. I just don’t have a deeply felt one. Having said that, I actually do believe white people when they say they don’t think of themselves racially. Even if that’s something they can only say because of their privileged position, I don’t think they are mistaken about it. I can even imagine how a black person in the US can not have a racial identity. If they were raised by a white family and never taught about race or racism, then why would they have one? I think the only reason I have one is it that for as long as I can remember I was taught that I’m a black person in a racist society. It’s kind of hard to unthink something like this, and it sticks with you whether you want it to stick or not. It actually seems to me that anyone who conforms to gender normative behaviors is displaying a gender identity. I wear earrings and necklaces not just because I’m a person who likes earrings and necklaces. I also use them to flash my gender identity. Wearing earrings and necklaces is how I _do_ gender. When my manner of dress is not feminine, I’m usually dressing solely for comfort or because I just threw something on for running errands. But when I want to impress people, I always flash my gender identity in some way. That’s why the “dress, speech, and mannerisms” part of the definition that YWTF cites makes sense to me. I understand why it’s also problematic, and yet it is hard for me to deny that those things are important to gender expression. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=54)