# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1083 "2020-07-07T14:17:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is slippery slope reasoning. If something changes, then yeah, something changes. At that point, we can adjust to the changes. You can’t know if something changes, if you don’t track that something. This is social science 101. In the future, when women start expressing concern about the problem you’re now denying is a problem, they will be asked to put up proof. “Show me the data or shut up.” And they won’t be able to do that. The data won’t exist. “It’s almost like that was the point all along,” a smart alec will say. “If only someone had been smart enough to point out these troubling implications way back in 2020, when we still had time to change course…” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1084 "2020-07-07T14:18:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The rhetoric is again stepping on itself here. > > Out of one side of its mouth, I’m hearing: “Trans are a tiny population! Why be all upset and scared about what they might do! They are tiny and will always be tiny! SHUT UP ALREADY!” > > Out of the other side, I’m hearing: “Gatekeeping is harmful to the trans population! You must show that the harms outweigh the benefits before we do anything that harms the trans population!” > > If we were able to show that men are evil enough to play the “woman” card to create havoc and harm against 1% of the population at any given time, but only 0.0001% of the human population is harmed by defining “woman” in a way to prevent fraudsters, at that point would you be in favor of gatekeeping? Or must we have zero harm to the trans population for anyone to care about what happens to cis women? Cuz that last thing is what it sounds like you’re saying. It’s sounds like you’re saying a tiny population’s concerns are more important than the huge population of ciswomen’s fears about men fucking with them, and we won’t do anything to address those concerns unless (yet again) ciswomen show irrefutable proof that men will try to fuck them over. Even though we know men have fucked them over since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for a long time, given the amount of sexism and misogyny we have in our world. Ciswomen will have to endure abuses imposed on them by the system until someone important enough notices it and does something about it. That sounds really regressive to me. > > We don’t have this cavalier "devil may care’ attitude to other identities and for good reason. We gatekeep all other protected identities because know that hateful people aren’t above subverting those identities to destroy that protection. We don’t have to sit around and wait for those hateful people to emerge at some scary threshold to do something. We just know it’s inevitable and so we defend ourselves from jump street. > > I don’t even know why we would even have women-focused programs and spaces if we can’t be arsed to protect those things from jump street. To me, not caring about protecting those things is basically admitting that those things aren’t important. And I suspect that’s the whole point. Make gender a “no big deal” in policy and then it becomes harder to justify treating it like it’s a big deal. Even though it will continue to be in the real world. Isn’t the cat already out of the bag on this (for protecting folks from predators, anyway)? If JKR gets her way, predatory men could pretend to be transmen or masculine ciswomen. If the trans activists get their way, predatory men could pretend to be transwomen or masculine ciswomen. How is one safer for ciswomen than the other? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1085 "2020-07-07T14:52:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Isn’t the cat already out of the bag on this (for protecting folks from predators, anyway)? If JKR gets her way, predatory men could pretend to be transmen or masculine ciswomen. If the trans activists get their way, predatory men could pretend to be transwomen or masculine ciswomen. How is one safer for ciswomen than the other? I don’t know what JKR is advocating so I’m not going to speak for her. I’m just speaking for myself. I’m fine with including transwomen in women spaces. Maybe JKR isn’t. But I’m only fine with inclusion when it isn’t literally “come on in, everybody who says they want in!!” I don’t want to have to put up with men passing themselves off as women in contexts where that translates into women (whether cis or trans) being displaced, all so we can rest assured that no transwomen has to ever be asked an uncomfortable question (such as “Can you name one person who will verify that you live openly as a woman?”) If ciswomen have to swallow the discomfort caused by their programming (e.g., sharing restrooms and locker rooms with people who aren’t in their sex class), then it seems to me that asking transwomen to swallow their discomfort over being asked a couple of potentially awkward questions in order to gain access to scholarships or outreach programs or women’s shelters is a fair exchange. As long as everyone is asked the same questions, this really should be a “no big deal” requirement. Throwing up our hands and saying there will be harm no matter what we do so let’s go with the thing that makes us feel secure in our progressiveness is an intellectual cop-out. I’m fine with taking a cost-benefit analysis approach to this entire thing, as long as that analysis doesn’t force us to define “acceptable harm” as zero harm for one group with non-zero harm for another group. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1086 "2020-07-07T14:57:06Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t know what JKR is advocating so I’m not going to speak for her. > > I’m just speaking for myself. I’m fine with including transwomen in women spaces. Maybe JKR isn’t. But I’m only fine with inclusion when it isn’t literally “come on in, everybody who says they want in!!” I don’t want to have to put up with men passing themselves off as women in contexts where that translates into women (whether cis or trans) being displaced, all so we can rest assured that no transwomen has to ever be asked an uncomfortable question (such as “Can you name one person who will verify that you live openly as a woman?”) If ciswomen have to swallow the discomfort caused by their programming (e.g., sharing restrooms and locker rooms with people who aren’t in their sex class), then it seems to me that asking transwomen to swallow their discomfort over being asked a couple of potentially awkward questions in order to gain access to scholarships or outreach programs or women’s shelters is a fair exchange. As long as everyone is asked the same questions, this really should be a “no big deal” requirement. > > Throwing up our hands and saying there will be harm no matter what we do so let’s go with the thing that makes us feel secure in our progressiveness is an intellectual cop-out. I’m fine with taking a cost-benefit analysis approach to this entire thing, as long as that analysis doesn’t force us to define “acceptable harm” as zero harm for one group with non-zero harm for another group. This sounds pretty reasonable to me, and pretty far from what JKR appears to be advocating for, by my reading. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1087 "2020-07-07T15:31:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This sounds pretty reasonable to me, and pretty far from what JKR appears to be advocating for, by my reading. Not necessarily: > [@J K Rowling](#): > > I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men. > > So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms **to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman** – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – **then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside**. That is the simple truth. > > On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Sounds like in fact the major problem she has with inclusion and the reason she’s speaking out now **is** the plan to make it literally “come on in, everybody who says they want in!!” As well as the prevailing view that avoiding harm to one group can’t possibly cause harm to another, so we don’t even need to bother with a cost-benefit analysis. (A declaration that 3 of the 4 Labour leadership candidates signed up to!) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1088 "2020-07-07T15:45:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Sounds like in fact the major problem she has with inclusion and the reason she’s speaking out now **is** the plan to make it literally “come on in, everybody who says they want in!!” As well as the prevailing view that avoiding harm to one group can’t possibly cause harm to another, so we don’t even need to bother with a cost-benefit analysis. (A declaration that 3 of the 4 Labour leadership candidates signed up to!) She’s too late – bathrooms are already open with no gatekeepers or genital-checkers, and she hasn’t offered any plan to change this. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1089 "2020-07-07T15:52:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She’s too late – bathrooms are already open with no gatekeepers or genital-checkers, and she hasn’t offered any plan to change this. Then why are the LGBT and trans groups campaigning to change the law? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1090 "2020-07-07T16:00:33Z")
It’s because there are still a few exceptions, like rape crisis centres, women’s shelters, prisons - which are not required by law to be open to all. Exceptions that most people in this thread have agreed are reasonable. But they still condemn JKR for opposing this. (Or say she’s doing it the wrong way and hurting people’s feelings, while not giving a damn about her feelings or those of women like her.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1091 "2020-07-07T16:12:02Z")
Because, even as nobody is ever checked for illicit genitalia at the bathroom door, there are bigots who harass transwoman by trying to deny them access to toilets. The whole thing is grandstanding for the base. But there are real people who now are afraid to get arrested when they go to a public toilet because some Karen called the cops. By expressing her fears about letting men into “women-only” spaces. JKR got sorted in that “bigot” house. I think I understand where she is coming from, but she really shouldn’t have mentioned bathrooms. Even I know that is a goddamn dog whistle for bigots. She really should acknowledge the tone-deafness on that and move on ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1092 "2020-07-07T16:25:15Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > she really shouldn’t have mentioned bathrooms. Even I know that is a goddamn dog whistle for bigots. You’re right. But to be honest I only knew about the bathroom thing from reading these boards. In the UK there isn’t really a religious right and there has been very little push-back on these trans rights bills until now. Still, if she’s done as much research as she claimed she should have realised that it was a bad thing to mention. Also, please don’t use the Karen meme. It’s become just another way of putting down women who stand up for themselves and telling us to sit down and shut up. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1093 "2020-07-07T16:35:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Then why are the LGBT and trans groups campaigning to change the law? Trans activists are campaigning for fair and equal treatment, which doesn’t necessarily mean changing the law. It does mean opposing the nasty efforts to actively harm and discriminate against trans people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1094 "2020-07-07T16:36:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But they still condemn JKR for opposing this. (Or say she’s doing it the wrong way and hurting people’s feelings, while not giving a damn about her feelings or those of women like her.) Or they carefully and reasonably criticize some of the specific things she said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1095 "2020-07-07T17:01:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Also, please don’t use the Karen meme. It’s become just another way of putting down women who stand up for themselves and telling us to sit down and shut up. I thought “Karen” was a way to put down white women who, out of fear and ignorance and privilege, put black people in danger for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1096 "2020-07-07T17:03:21Z")
Re: Karen Sometimes the the shoe fits. Give me reasonably short replacement term (that a reasonable % of people understand) that describes a woman who would call the cops if they suspect someone who’s not strictly a girl is in the girls’ bathroom. ( Except “Moaning Myrtle” off course, that one is trademarked:) ) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1097 "2020-07-07T17:04:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Or they carefully and reasonably criticize some of the specific things she said. And having done that (and rereading her essay, that word ‘contagion’ you objected to is actually part of a quotation from someone else, Rowling didn’t choose it), will you agree that maybe she has a point? And that we should at least be allowed to have a debate about it, rather than seeing our political leaders sign a pledge saying there is no conflict and any members who disagree should be expelled from the party? Is that a healthy way to do politics, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1098 "2020-07-07T17:07:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And having done that (and rereading her essay, that word ‘contagion’ you objected to is actually part of a quotation from someone else, Rowling didn’t choose it), will you agree that maybe she has a point? I don’t object to everything she wrote. Some of what she wrote is fine with me. I specifically pointed out what I thought was worth criticizing (and quoting someone else, when signalling agreement, doesn’t excuse using such a term). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1099 "2020-07-07T17:08:17Z")
That will not happen until everybody distances themselves from the bathroom thing. That was always just a shtick bigots picked up to hit unsuspecting transwomen with. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1100 "2020-07-07T17:28:56Z")
and masculine presenting ciswomen get a lot of collateral damage from random people trying to police the bathrooms. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1101 "2020-07-07T17:53:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I thought “Karen” was a way to put down white women who, out of fear and ignorance and privilege, put black people in danger for no good reason. If it was once, it sure isn’t now. It moved on to be a description of entitled suburbanites who have unreasonable expectations of service workers. Although everyone agreed that at least half the people who fit this stereotype are men, surprise, surprise, a female term became popularised. I’ve seen several women say they were put off from complaining about objectively bad service or are afraid to stand for themselves for fear of being called a Karen. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1102 "2020-07-07T18:07:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trans activists are campaigning for fair and equal treatment, which doesn’t necessarily mean changing the law. It does mean opposing the nasty efforts to actively harm and discriminate against trans people. They actually are campaigning to change the law here in the UK, though. And some of the things they want go beyond fair and equal treatment. For example, how much gatekeeping there should be from the medical profession before prescribing hormones and approving surgery. It’s understandable that people who struggled to get treatment themselves doesn’t want others to suffer the same difficulties. But it’s also a fact that most people aren’t psychologists and aren’t competent to diagnose themselves and rule to out alternatives. We don’t hand out Ritalin to everyone who thinks they have ADHD, much less to children. Yet transgender support charities are pushing to lower the age for permanent medical interventions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=56)