# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1223 "2020-07-09T17:09:00Z")
Well, this might contribute to why there wasn’t this giant wave of progressives taking over the Democratic party like all the progressives seemed to think earlier this year - the whole purity test thing. It doesn’t matter if you think transpeople should have all the rights that iiandyiii mentioned _but_ you want your biological reality upheld - that makes you unclean (TERFy) in the eyes of certain noisy progressives and puts you on the same level as a Grand Dragon of the KKK. I am not voting for someone who demonstrates that they don’t think much of me and that my concerns are not real, whether it’s Democrat, Republican, progressive, conservative, libertarian or whatever the hell crazy Kanye has decided he is. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1224 "2020-07-09T17:49:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ve been on your side for most of this discussion, so maybe this isn’t going to be a shocker, but I agree with you that there’s nothing innocuous about that stance. Thanks. I’m starting to feel like I’m going crazy - or everyone else is. Whatever happened to the left being the ones who cared about science? Now all we get is slogans and excommunication if you don’t repeat them with sufficient zeal. I never thought I’d see left-wingers burning Harry Potter books alongside the religious right. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1225 "2020-07-09T17:54:05Z")
@iiandyiiii > The counter argument is that predatory men can already do this, and there’s no evidence of an increase in danger or risk, because of the following: if JKR gets her way, predatory men pretend to be trans men or masculine cis women. “Predatory men have always been able to fake their way into women’s spaces, so it doesn’t matter if we make it easier for them to do that.” This is what your response means. You are communicating complete indifference to women’s safety. If predatory men aren’t a big deal, then why do we even have the fiction of sex-segregated spaces? Just give all males the right to undress with naked women. If break-ins are always a possibility, then why put locks on doors? It’s the same logic. If the Dems’ go-to response is to always deflect and deny, then trust me, this is not going to convince anyone. > The problem is predatory men, not trans people, or treating trans people with respect and decency and allowing them to use facilities. “So Vice President Biden, what is your proposal for addressing this problem? Are you in favor of developing and enforcing criteria to limit which transwomen are able to access female-restricted spaces, so that it’s harder for predatory males to take advantage of the system? Or are you against any limits?” ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1226 "2020-07-09T17:57:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Thanks. I’m starting to feel like I’m going crazy - or everyone else is. I know the feeling. You are not crazy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1227 "2020-07-09T17:58:41Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > “Predatory men have always been able to fake their way into women’s spaces, so it doesn’t matter if we make it easier for them to do that.” > > This is what your response means. You are communicating complete indifference to women’s safety. If predatory men aren’t a big deal, then why do we even have the fiction of sex-segregated spaces? Just give all males the right to undress with naked women. If break-ins are always a possibility, then why put locks on doors? It’s the same logic. No one has yet explained how this “makes it easier to do that”. Why is pretending to be a trans woman easier than pretending to be a trans man? Doesn’t seem any easier to me, or the cis women allies whose writing and words shifted my views. > [@](#): > > “So Vice President Biden, what is your proposal for addressing this problem? Are you in favor of developing and enforcing criteria to limit which transwomen are able to access female-restricted spaces, so that it’s harder for predatory males to take advantage of the system? Or are you against any limits?” “I don’t understand the question - how would restricting trans women from accessing a space make it harder for predatory men to access it?” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1228 "2020-07-09T18:03:33Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > “Predatory men have always been able to fake their way into women’s spaces, so it doesn’t matter if we make it easier for them to do that.” > > This is what your response means. You are communicating complete indifference to women’s safety. If predatory men aren’t a big deal, then why do we even have the fiction of sex-segregated spaces? Just give all males the right to undress with naked women. If break-ins are always a possibility, then why put locks on doors? It’s the same logic. “Policing where transwomen pee isn’t going to prevent any sexual assaults,” is absolutely not the same as, “Preventing sexual assault doesn’t matter.” ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1229 "2020-07-09T18:08:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one has yet explained how this “makes it easier to do that”. Why is pretending to be a trans woman easier than pretending to be a trans man? Doesn’t seem any easier to me, or the cis women allies whose writing and words shifted my views. We have explained that. If a male inmate has a chance to go to a female prison, it makes no sense for him to claim to be a trans man. He would claim to be a trans woman. Believe it or not, there are men who understand that other males (trans women) are given certain rights and privileges that they don’t have. So why wouldn’t they seek these rights and privileges, when all they’d have to do is call themselves trans? You can prove a man is not a female (trans man), but you can’t prove a man is not a “real” trans woman. There is no objective criteria the defines a trans woman. This is the other fatal flaw of gender ideology. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1230 "2020-07-09T18:09:37Z")
Racists have always attacked racial minorities. Therefore, let’s do something to prevent racists from attacking racial minorities in spaces that are reserved for them. Predatory men have always attacked women. Therefore, let’s make it easier for predatory men to have access to women-only spaces. ? Reducing it to “transwomen peeing” is disingenious. Women have spaces that have nothing to do with peeing. Literal spaces (locker rooms and dormitories) and metaphorical spaces (sports and women’s shelters). So can we please stop talking about pee? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1231 "2020-07-09T18:11:55Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > We have explained that. If a male inmate has a chance to go to a female prison, it makes no sense for him to claim to be a trans man. He would claim to be a trans woman. If anyone is advocating that women’s prisons be open to men based on nothing more than a single claim of being trans, I stand with you against them. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1232 "2020-07-09T18:19:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “I don’t understand the question - how would restricting trans women from accessing a space make it harder for predatory men to access it?” “With all due respect, Vice President Biden, I don’t understand your lack of understanding. If any man has the right to call themselves a trans woman, this means all a predatory male has to say is “I’m a trans woman” and viola, he can shower with the ladies. I don’t want my daughters to be at risk from someone taking advantage of the system like this. It doesn’t sound like the prospect of this happening has even crossed your mind. I’m searching my mind for what you could say right now to convince me that you’re in touch with reality, and I’m coming up blank. Very disappointing.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1233 "2020-07-09T18:22:39Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > “With all due respect, Vice President Biden, I don’t understand your lack of understanding. If any man has the right to call themselves a trans woman, this means all a predatory male has to say is “I’m a trans woman” and viola, he can shower with the ladies. I don’t want my daughters to be at risk from someone taking advantage of the system like this. It doesn’t sound like the prospect of this happening has even crossed your mind. I’m searching my mind for what you could say right now to convince me that you’re in touch with reality, and I’m coming up blank. Very disappointing.” Trump and co will undoubtedly try to use this kind of straw man against Biden. Hopefully voters see through it. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1234 "2020-07-09T18:23:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If anyone is advocating that women’s prisons be open to men based on nothing more than a single claim of being trans, I stand with you against them. So you stand with JKR. The thesis of her entire essay was that the push for self-identification hurts women and children. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1235 "2020-07-09T18:24:58Z")
There’s a huge amount of distance between self identification and any asshole predator man can just say they’re trans to get access. I stand with you against what appears to me as the straw man of rapists who say they’re women are women. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1236 "2020-07-09T18:26:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trump and co will undoubtedly try to use this kind of straw man against Biden. Hopefully voters see through it. And by “see through it” you mean not think about it too hard because it raises some uncomfortable questions that Biden will inevitably fail at answering in any kind of coherent or non-creepy way. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1237 "2020-07-09T18:32:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s a huge amount of distance between self identification and any asshole predator man can just say they’re trans to get access. I stand with you against what appears to me as the straw man of rapists who say they’re women are women. Like I said, you stand with JKR. Here is what she wrote: > On Saturday morning, I read that the **Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one**. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. **That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity**. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety. Women are raped and sexually assaulted by opportunistic predators every day. Women can see the implications of these laws much clearer than men can, because we know we will be suffering the consequences. Not men. I really feel like going outside and tipping a car over right now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1238 "2020-07-09T18:32:10Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > And by “see through it” you mean not think about it too hard because it raises some uncomfortable questions that Biden will inevitably fail at answering in any kind of coherent or non-creepy way. No, that’s not what I mean - what I mean is the response didn’t say or even imply any of this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1239 "2020-07-09T18:34:00Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Like I said, you stand with JKR. > > Here is what she wrote: > > > On Saturday morning, I read that the **Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one**. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. **That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity**. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety. > > Women have been raped and sexually assaulted because of opportunistic predators. Women can see the implications of these laws much clearer than men can, because we will be suffering the consequences. > > I really feel like going outside and tipping a car over right now. I’m unconvinced that she is accurately describing any laws. If she is, I stand with her on this specific thing (while still strongly disagreeing with the denigrating and erasing language she used), but I’m very skeptical that she is accurately describing it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1240 "2020-07-09T18:34:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If anyone is advocating that women’s prisons be open to men based on nothing more than a single claim of being trans, I stand with you against them. Advocating? It’s already happened in some countries: > **[Male-bodied transgender inmate housed with women](https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2019/10-october/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners)** > > Criminal defence lawyer Robert Purcell says that the Gender Recognition Act 2015 has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners. > [@](#): > > “I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said. > > The court has to recognise the lawfulness of that law, and act on it, and that’s what the judge was doing, Purcell said. > > He commented that the judge may have made the decision that the person was a woman, on the basis that the person had self-declared under the act. The judge then had to accept that he or she was sentencing a female. The Prison Service must then commit the prisoner to an appropriate prison, Purcell said. What a pity they didn’t consider the ramifications of the legislation before passing it, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1241 "2020-07-09T18:34:43Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Again, let remind you that you are male. You aren’t a woman, have never had an occasion to be called a woman, and wouldn’t have to live with the consequences of “woman” being turned into a meaningless placeholder for any man to use and abuse. So why do you think your failure to find anything bizarre about any of this count as much as the opinions of multiple women who say otherwise? I am currently (not related to trans persons at all, its something IRL, but this triggered it because its a great example) really sick of men ceding ground held by women that they don’t own, didn’t fight for, and have no right to cede. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1242 "2020-07-09T18:37:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Advocating? It’s already happened in some countries: > > [Male-bodied transgender inmate housed with women](https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/) > > > [@](#): > > > > “I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said. > > > > The court has to recognise the lawfulness of that law, and act on it, and that’s what the judge was doing, Purcell said. > > > > He commented that the judge may have made the decision that the person was a woman, on the basis that the person had self-declared under the act. The judge then had to accept that he or she was sentencing a female. The Prison Service must then commit the prisoner to an appropriate prison, Purcell said. > > What a pity they didn’t consider the ramifications of the legislation before passing it, eh? The linked article described several steps beyond just a man saying they were a woman and getting into the women’s prison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=63)