# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1484 "2020-07-14T14:10:07Z")
> [@Springehinge](#): > > I wonder how the results of polls like that would change if people knew that surgery is being done on children and the effects of drugs which halt the production of sex hormones have not been proven to be harmless. I wasn’t aware that these kind of surgeries were being done on kids, so I certainly appreciate you bringing it into the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1485 "2020-07-14T14:18:40Z")
Bathroom bills are bathroom bills. There are reasons a person may them icky that have nothing to do with how that person feels about males having access to any and all women-only spaces. I oppose anti-abortion bills. But I am very much against the government forcing abortions on women. If someone used statistics showing overwhelming support for anti-abortion bills to prove that most people are in favor of forced abortions, we would all think that person had lost their fucking mind. ---
**Author:** ![Springehinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Springehinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springehinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1486 "2020-07-14T14:29:24Z")
It’s especially upsetting to see that a lot of detransitioned young people blame themselves. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1487 "2020-07-14T14:57:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Not any more: I don’t mean to sound like a broken record but, again, please don’t read too much into these kinds of “Reports.” This is ONE POLL, with an unclear methodology, showing a change over just one year, commissioned by an organization that has a vested interest in homophobia existing. It is not remotely enough evidence to even begin to suspect the notion that young people are becoming less tolerant. It’s not just that this isn’t a trend. It doesn’t even qualify as a blip. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1488 "2020-07-14T15:13:28Z")
Found this bit interesting: > The negative shift for the young is surprising, said Sarah Kate Ellis, GLAAD president and CEO. When GLAAD delved into the numbers, the group found that the younger generation was coming in contact with more LBGTQ people, particularly individuals who are non-binary and don’t identify simply as lesbian or gay. > “This newness they are experiencing could be leading to this erosion. It’s a newness that takes time for people to understand. Our job is to educate about non-conformity,” she said. Interesting that she assumes the answer is more education, without first stepping back and asking why female support is dropping quicker than male support. Have we ever seen sex disparities point in this direction before for social issues? Also interesting that the emergence of non-binaries is being implicated, as if there is something particularly novel or threatening about androgynous people. The existence of NBs doesn’t challenge much of anything; that’s why they don’t even merit an honorable mention in threads like this one. It is only when an NB claims their agender identity negates their body’s sex class and thus entitles them to special privileges and rights (like access to women’s spaces) that we come into controversial territory. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1489 "2020-07-14T15:38:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wasn’t aware that these kind of surgeries were being done on kids, so I certainly appreciate you bringing it into the conversation. It is unethical to perform breast reduction or other cosmetic/aesthetic surgery on children, though it does not surprise me that there are unethical surgeons who will do it for enough money. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1490 "2020-07-14T17:36:57Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > It is unethical to perform breast reduction or other cosmetic/aesthetic surgery on children, though it does not surprise me that there are unethical surgeons who will do it for enough money. Minor procedures like having ears pinned back are okay, but serious surgery with irreversible consequences like a double mastectomy should be left until adulthood. Even then I think counselling should be required before cosmetic surgery, but probably no one wants to bring in that rule. In the UK a doctor was suspended for giving hormones to kids as young as 12, and is simply moving the practice abroad to get around the rules: > **[Doctor who ran illegal transgender clinic moves service to Spain](https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/helen-mike-webberley-gender-gp-16297750)** > > Helen Webberley said the clinic offers "life-saving" care which is not available anywhere else in the UK She was recommended by Mermaids, a charity that advises schools on trans issues is one of the ones I mentioned are campaigning to change the laws. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1491 "2020-07-14T21:03:08Z")
For those who shrug at the implications of giving any adult the right to be called a woman, read this article and tell me what it does to your brain. > **[Blackpool woman accessed child abuse images in hospital bed](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-53410019)** > > Julie Marshall was found to have a "vast" library of more than 80,000 images, a court hears. Perhaps there is something in the water, but a similar story came out today about a self-identified woman named Anthony Scales. You can google it if curious. That said, I don’t see the existence of these pedos as an indictment against trans women in general. I think they highlight the absurdity of saying someone’s gender identity should buy them a ticket into female spaces. Why do they have right to claim space in a locker room where little girls could be present? There is too much incentive for them to lie about their identity, when it opens those kind of doors for them. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1492 "2020-07-14T21:19:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wasn’t aware that these kind of surgeries were being done on kids, so I certainly appreciate you bringing it into the conversation. Your tax dollars may even be paying for them: > **[Vermont opens door for gender-affirming surgery for transgender youth](https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2019/06/12/vermont-opens-door-gender-affirming-surgery-youth-transgender-trans-kids/1381261001/)** > > A proposed tweak to the state's Medicaid rules would eliminate the requirement that a transgender person be over 21 to seek surgery. > [@](#): > > Gender-affirming surgeries covered by Medicaid include 16 types of genital surgery, as well as breast augmentation or mastectomy, a surgery that removes the whole breast. > > The new rule, proposed at the end of May, eliminates an age minimum and allows youths under 18 to get surgeries with informed consent from a parent or guardian. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1493 "2020-07-14T23:55:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Bathroom bills are bathroom bills. There are reasons a person may them icky that have nothing to do with how that person feels about males having access to any and all women-only spaces. > > I oppose anti-abortion bills. But I am very much against the government forcing abortions on women. If someone used statistics showing overwhelming support for anti-abortion bills to prove that most people are in favor of forced abortions, we would all think that person had lost their fucking mind. A more apt comparison for both situations are people who have opinions and preferences about other people’s bodies, but don’t want actual police policing other people’s bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1494 "2020-07-14T23:59:39Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > It is unethical to perform breast reduction or other cosmetic/aesthetic surgery on children, If by children you mean minors, this is incorrect. As is binning all breast reduction surgery as cosmetic/aesthetic, given that it’s often a treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1495 "2020-07-15T03:33:22Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > That said, I don’t see the existence of these pedos as an indictment against trans women in general. I think they highlight the absurdity of saying someone’s gender identity should buy them a ticket into female spaces. Why do they have right to claim space in a locker room where little girls could be present? There is too much incentive for them to lie about their identity, when it opens those kind of doors for them. This seems like a pointless quibble about which gender of children it’s “worse” for child sexual abusers to sexually abuse. An abuser of whatever gender potentially has access to little children in gender-segregated spaces, so there’s always going to be some nonzero risk of abuse wherever children and adults interact. Especially considering that the vast majority of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by an adult in the victim’s family/social circle, against whom transgender-policing legislation about general locker-room access is pretty much useless. Most abusers have far more incentive to victimize children known to them personally, in their own acknowledged gender identity, than to engage in unrealistic scenarios of “lying about their identity” in order to possibly gain haphazard fleeting proximity to children of strangers. Personally, I’m against anybody of whatever gender identity sexually abusing children of whatever gender identity, We should protect all children against sexual abuse, and AFAICT that does not require denying transgender people the right to live in society as the gender they identify as. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1496 "2020-07-15T05:18:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This seems like a pointless quibble about which gender of children it’s “worse” for child sexual abusers to sexually abuse. An abuser of whatever gender potentially has access to little children in gender-segregated spaces, so there’s always going to be some nonzero risk of abuse wherever children and adults interact. I haven’t made the “quibble” you’re saying I’m making. You are missing my point. A predator is liable to say and do whatever it takes for them to access the targets they desire. Pedophiles lie all the time to increase their access to children, and no one with any sense would deny this. [They have even been known to even impersonate children in real life to do this](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2007/02/03/2003347526). But when it comes to gender, there is no such thing as impersonating a woman anymore. That identity can be claimed by any unscrupulous male and actually be dignified by the press as if it’s true. A male predator whose targets are female would have to be an idiot not to capitalize on this. Rather than acknowledging this grim truth, it’s being denied, denied, denied. “Boys shouldn’t be abused either!” Well, no shit. Again, that isn’t my point. But surely you’re not trying to say the potential harm that comes to boys means wanting to protect girls from female-impersonating predators is somehow wrong. That can’t possibly be your position, so I hope you can clarify. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1497 "2020-07-15T05:56:44Z")
Are we supposed to pretend this sort of crime isn’t by far mostly committed by men? Is it transphobic to doubt even a convicted paedophile’s gender identity? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1498 "2020-07-15T06:04:13Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > > [@DPRK](#): > > > > It is unethical to perform breast reduction or other cosmetic/aesthetic surgery on children, > > If by children you mean minors, this is incorrect. As is binning all breast reduction surgery as cosmetic/aesthetic, given that it’s often a treatment. Did not mean to be so imprecise. It goes without saying that if something is a genuine treatment, especially of an anomaly or impairment, or reconstructive then there is no problem. But not all plastic surgery falls into that category. Nor are all minors competent and mature enough to consent to medical procedures. Don’t forget that people, women, are influenced by all sorts of dangerously irresponsible bullshit about what they are supposed to be like and that does not mean every teenager will be right about needing labiaplasty and osteotomy. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1499 "2020-07-15T11:22:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This seems like a pointless quibble about which gender of children it’s “worse” for child sexual abusers to sexually abuse. An abuser of whatever gender potentially has access to little children in gender-segregated spaces, so there’s always going to be some nonzero risk of abuse wherever children and adults interact. “Why are you afraid of male rapists coming into your locker room? Those rapists you are worried about are raping boys and men in their locker rooms, but you don’t see them complaining about it, do you? Man up, girl! And you’re being raped and abused by plenty of ciswomen, you know! So worry about those rapists before you start pointing the finger at male rapists!” That’s how your post reads to me. Since I know you to be a reasonable person, I know that’s not what you intend to say, but that’s the message you’re sending. Women are entitled to their fears over rape, not just for themselves but also for their female children. Just because this is a taboo topic for boys and men doesn’t mean that it should be one for women. And we should be able to acknowledge that male rapists and pedos are more common than female rapists and pedos. If we can acknowledge the fact that men are more likely to inflict violence on transwomen, we should also be able to acknowledge that they are more likely to rape and sexual assault girls and women. So it is perfectly reasonable for women to be more afraid of men than they are of women in circumstances of nakedity and vulnerability (their bedrooms). If you can validate transwomen’s fear without belittling them or pushing back on them, you should be able to do the same thing with another ciswoman’s fears. This is a lesson I have learned from this thread and it will last with me for a long time, I hope. We know rapists (and pedos and all the other sexual monsters) are already raping and abusing. But there have always been social defenses we could rely on to make it harder for them. Like being able to scream when an obvious male creature comes into the locker room. If we now say that women who react like this are all irrational transphobes, then women will almost certainly second-guess what their gut is telling them. The radar that pings when women encounter a potential female rapist/abuser won’t be second-guessed like this, though. Trans activists are demanding that women only dampen their fear response in the presence of males. Which then just opens the door for this kind of victim-blaming: “You admitted on the witness stand yesterday that you were scared when you saw the defendent enter the locker room. So why didn’t you scream? Why didn’t you get out of there? You didn’t act afraid at all, my dear. You just kept showering and acting like everything was normal. So tell us why should the jury believe you when you said you were raped? You’re a grown woman. You knew what was going to happen, didn’t you? And you wanted it to happen. I rest my case, your honor!” Shit like this happens right now. So I don’t think it’s going to magically disappear in the brand new world of “anyone who says they are a woman is a woman.” It’s only going to be worse. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1500 "2020-07-15T12:28:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “Why are you afraid of male rapists coming into your locker room? Those rapists you are worried about are raping boys and men in their locker rooms, but you don’t see them complaining about it, do you? Man up, girl! And you’re being raped and abused by plenty of ciswomen, you know! So worry about those rapists before you start pointing the finger at male rapists!” “How sexist you are for insisting a male pedophile be kept out of the women’s locker room! What makes females so special that they can’t put up with little more non-zero risk, huh? Won’t someone think of the boys? I mean, sure, Julie Marshall and Anthony Scales predominately targeted girls in their predation, but that’s besides the point! Keeping them out of women’s spaces might mean keeping out innocent trans women too, which is an injustice that eclipses any concern a TERFy female could possibly have about her safety or her daughter’s safety.” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1501 "2020-07-15T14:47:31Z")
Here’s an article about the problems with using self- declared gender instead of sex in data and statistics: > **[Coronavirus shows why it's vital to distinguish sex and gender](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Coronavirus-shows-why-its-vital-to-distinguish-sex-and-gender/)** > > The Covid-19 pandemic shows all too clearly the importance of data. Knowing that men and older people are more likely to die and that certain ethnic groups are also more at risk is worrying but vital information. Without accurate data, we are... ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1502 "2020-07-15T17:59:04Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > That said, I don’t see the existence of these pedos as an indictment against trans women in general. I think they highlight the absurdity of saying someone’s gender identity should buy them a ticket into female spaces. Why do they have right to claim space in a locker room where little girls could be present? There is too much incentive for them to lie about their identity, when it opens those kind of doors for them. You seem to be assuming that this person is specifically interested in girls, but there’s no indication of that in the article you linked. My understanding is that pedophiles tend not to have gender preferences in their victims, and will target whatever children they have access to. Put this person in a men’s locker room, and you’re just endangering young boys, instead. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1503 "2020-07-15T18:09:48Z")
With regards to locker rooms, I’m sure some cismen without any trans issues would prefer to use the women’s locker room simply for modesty reasons. Some men in the men’s locker room appear to be bashful and will do things like shower in their underwear and change clothes in a bathroom stall or under their towel. I assume some of these men are just uncomfortable with nudity around men, and thus might choose to use the women’s locker room if given the choice. In a world where anyone can use any locker room for any reason, I would imagine that the women’s locker room would only have people in it who who were born as male. I would assume that most women would stop using the locker room altogether and instead change clothes at home or in some private area. I’m sure some men would do the same and stop using the men’s locker room if women had access, but probably not as many. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=76)