# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/142 "2020-06-23T21:40:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So, **you with the face** , I wonder if the concerns you, **DemonTree** , and JK Rowling have are reflexively dismissed around here because people are assuming that we’re always going to have a negligible number of people trying to game the gender system–never enough to fret over. Yeah, that’s likely. Seems to be @Banquet_Bear’s argument. The bathroom fears do seem the least plausible, but given that the percentage of men who admit to rape in surveys is higher than the percentage of transgender people in the population, I’m surprised everyone is so quick to disregard the risks for changing rooms, shelters etc. And with prisons, the incentive is much higher, the prisoners already showed a lack of morality, and the women affected have no choice over who they share a shower with. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/143 "2020-06-23T21:41:27Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Lisa Littman, the researcher who published a paper on Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria that challenged the current orthodoxy, lost her consulting job as a result Do you have a cite for that? Googling around, I don’t see anything about her losing her job over it. Also, the Littman study was absolute garbage, so if she did lose her job over it, consider the possibility it was because the study revealed that she was actually really bad at her job. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/144 "2020-06-23T22:21:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Googling around, I don’t see anything about her losing her job over it. > > Also, the Littman study was absolute garbage, so if she did lose her job over it, consider the possibility it was because the study revealed that she was actually really bad at her job. She mentions it in this interview: [An Interview With Lisa Littman, Who Coined the Term ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’](https://quillette.com/2019/03/19/an-interview-with-lisa-littman-who-coined-the-term-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/) and says her consulting work had nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Due to the controversy, her paper was withdrawn and given an extra, post-publication review by the journal. The result was it was republished with a clearer title and better explanation, but unchanged conclusions. If it was really ‘absolute garbage’, it would not have been republished at all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/145 "2020-06-23T22:35:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Due to the controversy, her paper was withdrawn and given an extra, post-publication review by the journal. The result was it was republished with a clearer title and better explanation, but unchanged conclusions. If it was really ‘absolute garbage’, it would not have been republished at all. Her study didn’t interview a single trans person. It interviewed parents of trans kids, and drew the population for its study from websites with anti-trans agendas. It was a biased piece of hackwork. I posted this take down of the study earlier, but here’s the link again in case you missed it. > **[Everything You Need to Know About Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria](https://juliaserano.medium.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-1940b8afdeba)** > > NOTE: This essay came out in August 2018, shortly after the Littman paper was published. Since then, there have been significant… ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/146 "2020-06-23T23:41:37Z")
…perhaps rather than inventing strawman positions for me and arguing against them, how about addressing the words I actually wrote instead? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/147 "2020-06-24T08:56:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Her study didn’t interview a single trans person. It interviewed parents of trans kids, and drew the population for its study from websites with anti-trans agendas. It was a biased piece of hackwork. I posted this take down of the study earlier, but here’s the link again in case you missed it. I did read your link earlier, but in general I don’t consider an essay by someone with an obvious bias enough reason to dismiss research published in a peer reviewed journal as ‘garbage’. Looking at the essay in more detail, it begins by stressing the possible bad results if the new diagnosis is accepted. These may or may not be true, but have no bearing on whether it’s real. The author then makes some reasonable points, but several of them were already addressed in Littman’s paper. Statistics from several countries show there really has been a massive increase in natal females presenting with gender dysphoria in adolescence. If this was due to more openness in society, role models etc, why no similar increase in adult women requesting transition? Why would the gender ratio reverse, rather than merely equalising? The quote in the essay from the DSM 5 about late onset gender dysphoria refers to adolescent males in particular. Not mentioned is that the DSM 5 goes on to say that the late onset form is much less common in natal females compared to natal males. The paper is an exploratory study, not intended to draw conclusions about how widespread the phenomenon might be. Littman makes clear she’s not looking at adolescent dysphorics in general, but a particular population; it says “The study’s stated eligibility criteria included parental response that their child had a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria and parental indication that their child’s gender dysphoria began during or after puberty.” Hence recruiting from websites where such parents gather. The main conclusion is that more research is required. Something not mentioned in the essay is the large percentage of this group that had been diagnosed with a mental health disorder or neurodevelopmental disability prior to the onset of their gender dysphoria. This seems somewhat concerning, as indicating a possible differential diagnosis in those cases. It’s also surprising how little research there is on the long term benefits of transitioning. Seeing all the resignations and whistleblowers (latest article here: [NHS child gender clinic: Staff concerns 'shut down' - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-51806962)) at the UK’s gender identity clinic makes me suspect we’re going to see another scandal along the lines of the opiate epidemic in America. The laudable desire to help suffering people can lead to overdiadnosis and inappropriate treatment that ultimately leaves them worse off. And it may also lead to a backlash that hurts those who genuinely would benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/148 "2020-06-24T19:59:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I did read your link earlier, but in general I don’t consider an essay by someone with an obvious bias enough reason to dismiss research published in a peer reviewed journal as ‘garbage’. It’s pretty misleading to call it a “peer-reviewed journal”: > [@from the article Miller linked previously](#): > > [PLOS One’s publishing philosophy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLOS_One#Publication_concept) is quite different from other research journals in that, as an online open-access journal, they focus on quantity over quality. While they review the more technical aspects of each paper they publish (a fairly low bar to clear for an article analyzing an online survey), they are generally hands off with regards to “subjective concerns” — such as which experiments the authors choose to carry out, and their interpretation of the results. Another journal would likely press Littman to use a more representative sample, provide concrete evidence that ROGD is distinct from regular old gender dysphoria, and more thoroughly explore other possible explanations for the results, as any spurious or unreasonable claims made by Littman would reflect poorly on the journal itself. _PLOS One,_ on the other hand, is not concerned with such matters, as they believe that the importance and relevance of an article should be determined by the scientific community post-publication (via debates and citations). Within scientific circles, researchers are well aware of this, and will take any claims made in a _PLOS One_ article with a grain of salt, if not multiple grains (note: I have subsequently elaborated on this point [here](https://twitter.com/JuliaSerano/status/1032698652400091136)). Unfortunately, the lay public (not being aware of this) will likely take this study as “proof” that ROGD is a scientifically validated concept. Even though it isn’t. It’s an exploratory study, sure. But the self-selection of respondents from anti-trans-parent blogsites is a fatal flaw in the study. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/149 "2020-06-24T20:11:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Littman makes clear she’s not looking at adolescent dysphorics in general, but a particular population; it says “The study’s stated eligibility criteria included parental response that their child had a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria and parental indication that their child’s gender dysphoria began during or after puberty.” But she’s not even looking at that population. She’s looking at the _parents_ of that population, and using their perception of their child’s gender struggles as evidence of “rapid onset” gender dysphoria. Which tells us literally nothing about how the kid was actually experiencing their gender, or for how long. If you’re trying to establish that there’s this phenomenon where kids who had no previous gender identity issues suddenly develop them over night, why wouldn’t you start by talking to the kids themselves? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/150 "2020-06-24T22:34:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s an exploratory study, sure. But the self-selection of respondents from anti-trans-parent blogsites is a fatal flaw in the study. Not everyone agrees: [Teen Transgender Identity: A Response to Critics | Psychology Today United Kingdom](https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201811/teen-transgender-identity-response-critics) That article also links to another by the former Dean of Harvard Medical School, expressing concern about the ability of all academics to conduct research on controversial topics: [As a Former Dean of Harvard Medical School, I Question Brown’s Failure to Defend Lisa Littman](https://quillette.com/2018/08/31/as-a-former-dean-of-harvard-medical-school-i-question-browns-failure-to-defend-lisa-littman/) More research could clear up some of the questions, but I don’t see too many academics being willing to risk taking it on. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/151 "2020-06-24T22:40:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you’re trying to establish that there’s this phenomenon where kids who had no previous gender identity issues suddenly develop them over night, why wouldn’t you start by talking to the kids themselves? The kids are unlikely to say anything that goes against the conventional narrative, since they are hoping for validation and treatment. And given the prevalence of internet and social media, it’s easy for a teenager to find out what the standard and expected responses are. Questioning the parents can’t tell you what the kid was experiencing, but it does tell you whether there were any signs in their behaviour - as are required to get a diagnosis in the DSV 5 of early onset gender dysphoria. That’s not nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/152 "2020-06-24T23:11:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The kids are unlikely to say anything that goes against the conventional narrative, since they are hoping for validation and treatment. …is this an opinion backed up by peer reviewed science, or is this just merely a musing? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/153 "2020-06-24T23:15:38Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The kids are unlikely to say anything that goes against the conventional narrative, since they are hoping for validation and treatment. And given the prevalence of internet and social media, it’s easy for a teenager to find out what the standard and expected responses are. “Teens are lying about having gender dysphoria to fit in with their friends!” “Did you determine this by talking to the teens?” “There’s no point! They’ll just lie about it!” That’s some impressively circular logic, there. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Questioning the parents can’t tell you what the kid was experiencing, but it does tell you whether there were any signs in their behaviour - as are required to get a diagnosis in the DSV 5 of early onset gender dysphoria. That’s not nothing. It doesn’t tell you if there were any signs in their behavior. At most, it tells you if the parents were perceptive enough to pick up on any signs in their behavior, and even that’s not particularly useful, because it doesn’t allow for parents who were willfully blind to these signs because they didn’t like the implications, or kids who deliberately suppressed any signs because they were afraid of how their parents would react to them. This is absolutely nothing. It’s half of a data set that might give some useful insight into the psychology of parents of trans kids if they’d done some proper follow up, but tells us absolutely nothing at all about the subject the paper claims to be studying. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/154 "2020-06-24T23:31:31Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Not everyone agrees: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201811/teen-transgender-identity-response-critics](https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201811/teen-transgender-identity-response-critics) What an odd thing to say. Obviously not everyone agrees with me. You don’t agree with me, nor does Littman. That doesn’t address what I said, it just points out something obviously true. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/155 "2020-06-25T01:37:04Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > I can defend another person’s right of free speech, while also disagreeing with the content of what they say or their personnel decisions. I can defend someone’s right to say whatever they want to say without worrying about punished by the government, while also not really caring if they lose sponsorship/get fired/get cussed out on the street/have doors slammed in their face/get called a stupid uglyface by internet denizens. I don’t think any of the people who want Rowling to be “cancelled” want her to be thrown in prison for expressing her opinions openly. Making this a freedom of speech issue is just dumb. I say this as someone who thinks much of what Rowling said is being blown out of proportion. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/156 "2020-06-25T01:48:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s not clear to me from the linked article that we’re talking about someone who is male-presenting at all. If he is male-presenting, would this change your opinion on whether he belongs in a women’s prison? Since you are in the camp who vehemently disagree with Rowling, I’m curious if you think there’s anything worrisome about allowing a male-presenting biological male in a women’s prison. As a woman, I can tell you that I wouldn’t be worried about sharing a cell block with a small number of folks falling in this category. But I would be worried about sharing living with a whole bunch of them because I wouldn’t feel like I’m in a women’s prison anymore. I’m trying to understand if folks here think that’s sexist, transphobic, or 100% reasonable. I’m also curious if folks here understand why would we even need gender segregated prisons if claiming a “woman” or “man” identity is the only requirement for gaining access into a particular type of prison. Do you think we should dismantle such a system? The part of me that thrives on logic feels like this makes sense in a society where gender is not defined by biology. But the part of me that has been programmed to view gender as a big deal thinks this is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/157 "2020-06-25T02:07:34Z")
DemonTree, I googled chestfeeding and discovered it has more currency than I thought it would have. I find it cringey. And I also find “chest cancer” instead of “breast cancer” cringey. That too is a thing, believe it or not. I guess as long as no one tells me to modify my diction, I’ll try my hardest to contain my judginess. But it is hard not to think that folks who use these terms in reference to themselves are sending a hurtful message. “I can’t call my breast a breast because then people will think I’m a dumb girl instead of a manly man!!” “Breast” isn’t gendered, IMHO. Not any more than butts, thighs, and hips are. But obviously other people’s mileage may vary. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/158 "2020-06-25T05:23:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Teens are lying about having gender dysphoria to fit in with their friends!” > “Did you determine this by talking to the teens?” > “There’s no point! They’ll just lie about it!” > > That’s some impressively circular logic, there. “Teens are lying about having gender dysphoria to fit in with their friends!” “Hey, teens, are you lying about having gender dysphoria?” “No, and you are a @#$/^&\* transphobic bigot for asking.” “See, not lying!” Now that would be circular logic. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be valuable to speak to them. It would also be helpful to question teachers and other people who knew them as children, in case the parents failed to notice/were in denial about any signs of cross gender behaviour. Doesn’t all have to be done in the first preliminary study, though. Do I think people should base life-changing decisions on this research? No. Do I think it deserves further investigation? Yes. Is that likely in the current climate? Draw your own conclusions… ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/159 "2020-06-25T06:26:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can defend someone’s right to say whatever they want to say without worrying about punished by the government, while also not really caring if they lose sponsorship/get fired/get cussed out on the street/have doors slammed in their face/get called a stupid uglyface by internet denizens. I don’t think I agree with this. Most people are not millionaires like Rowling, and the threat of losing their jobs will be enough to keep them silent. Some degree of social reaction is inevitable, of more or less intensity depending on the opinion, but threats, doxxing etc should not be considered acceptable. If we decide as a society that free speech is important, we need to do more to foster it than simply not making it illegal. > [@monstro](#): > > DemonTree, I googled chestfeeding and discovered it has more currency than I thought it would have. I find it cringey. And I also find “chest cancer” instead of “breast cancer” cringey. That too is a thing, believe it or not. > > I guess as long as no one tells me to modify my diction, I’ll try my hardest to contain my judginess. But it is hard not to think that folks who use these terms in reference to themselves are sending a hurtful message. “I can’t call my breast a breast because then people will think I’m a dumb girl instead of a manly man!!” “Breast” isn’t gendered, IMHO. Not any more than butts, thighs, and hips are. But obviously other people’s mileage may vary. That’s especially ridiculous because (natal) men can also get breast cancer! The attitude sees to contrast with mtfs insisting ‘it’s a woman’s penis’, and sanitary towel packaging removing the Venus symbol and all mention of women, while products aimed at men not being asked to change their branding… I don’t know, maybe I’m imagining there’s a difference. I find it hard to understand these days. When I first learned about transsexuals, it was explained that the reason they couldn’t just dress and act however they felt comfortable, rather than going to the trouble of actually changing sex, was that they felt uncomfortable with their bodies (the dysphoria). And that was so important we had to spend taxpayer’s money to fix it. But now we have people changing gender, and not just keeping all their original plumbing but making use of it too, so apparently that wasn’t true. And then they want us to pretend they don’t have the body parts they have no problem making use of? How does that make any sense? I must be getting old… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/160 "2020-06-25T06:28:57Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > “Teens are lying about having gender dysphoria to fit in with their friends!” > “Hey, teens, are you lying about having gender dysphoria?” > “No, and you are a @#$/^&\* transphobic bigot for asking.” > “See, not lying!” > > Now that would be circular logic. That’s not what circular logic means. And that’s also, obviously, not how you would go about asking this. If you want to establish that ROGD is a real thing, how about starting by asking, “When did you first start feeling you were transgender?” Why would someone lie about that answer? Before you try to play the “trans orthodoxy” card again, keep in mind that ROGD didn’t exist before Littman’s paper - there was no “orthodoxy” on this issue, because the issue didn’t exist before Littman invented it. > [@DemonTree](#): > > That’s not to say it wouldn’t be valuable to speak to them. Why? If nothing a trans person says about their own experiences can be trusted, why talk to them at all? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Doesn’t all have to be done in the first preliminary study, though. Call me crazy, but if you’re going to advance a radical theory explaining the psychology of a distinct group of people, the “preliminary study” ought to include the people your theory is about. Talking to the parents could be useful as a supplementary study to one focused on the kids themselves, but to use that as your starting point to describe a theory that deligitimizes the personal experiences of a vulnerable minority strongly suggests either an ulterior motive, or gross incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/161 "2020-06-25T07:32:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If he is male-presenting, would this change your opinion on whether he belongs in a women’s prison? A little bit. “Male-presenting” is an inexact term, particularly in the context of a prison, where everyone’s wearing the same orange jumpsuits, and nobody has access to electrolysis. If by “male presenting” you mean they’ve got a big ol’ Duck Dynasty beard, then yeah, probably not appropriate to house them in the women’s prison. If you mean “visible stubble despite shaving every day, plus male pattern baldness,” well, that’s a harder call. A person can be genuine about their trans identity, and still be materially unable to do anything to pass as their identity. I think the standard should be risk assessment, in both directions - how much of a risk do they pose to female inmates, and how much risk are they at from male inmates. Gender presentation should be a part of this equation, but not the only benchmark. I’m very much opposed to the idea of “genderless” prisons, and I doubt you’d find any support for the idea among even the most extreme trans activists. Neither do I support transferring anyone to a women’s prison just because they claim to be a woman. A lot of people confuse a philosophical opposition to gatekeeping with an inability to spot bullshit. Prison is a rare circumstance where there’s a genuinely high risk of people falsely claiming trans identity to take advantage of someone, and it’s important to safeguard against that. There’s a difference between, “I think you’re lying about your gender identity because you’re not trying to match my personal conception of ‘female’,” and “I think you’re lying about your gender identity because you’re doing life for sexual assault, and you’re trying to get transferred to the women’s prison.” I agree that “chestfeeding” is stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=9)