# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1624 "2020-07-17T14:23:34Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > TWAW is a [circular argument](https://examples.yourdictionary.com/circular-reasoning-fallacy-examples.html), so it’s fallacious. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Truth isn’t a [strictly objective value](https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-how-repetition-creates-an-illusion-of-truth). Apparently BanquetBear doesn’t believe there is such a thing as truth, which explains a lot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1625 "2020-07-17T14:27:34Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Apparently BanquetBear doesn’t believe there is such a thing as truth, which explains a lot. “Strictly objective” is not the same thing as “objective,” so in fairness there’s a philosophical point to be made there, albeit preferably in a different thread. Lots of people have a perfectly rational, objective approach to truth, and can agree on usefully clear facts and definitions, when it comes to some things, and take a position of faith on others. History is chock full of people who were pioneering scientists and also deeply religious. TWAW is a spiritual belief, not a position of supported fact, and I’m not going to say spiritual beliefs are something a person shouldn’t hold. They should not, however, be mistaken for truth. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1626 "2020-07-17T14:27:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You didn’t post this thread in Great Debates. You posted it here in IMHO. You don’t get to demand I do anything here. If you wanted debate or if you simply wanted to witness then GD would have been a better place to post this thread. You asserted that TWAW is an intersectional feminist position. For something to be an intersectional feminist position, it actually has to _be_ that. A mere assertion without the support of a rational argument is nothingness. We could extend this to gender ideology too. Just asserting that you’re a woman, doesn’t make you a woman. Just asserting you have a female brain doesn’t mean you have a female brain. These are very simple concepts here. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1627 "2020-07-17T14:30:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Equivocation is probably the closest, conflating ‘need to’ for your argument to be valid with ‘need to’ as a demand. …“need to” was a demand. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Lack of compassion just means they didn’t respond to **your** appeal to emotion. > [@"wiki](#): > > The appeal to emotion is only fallacious when the emotions that are elicited are irrelevant to evaluating the truth of the conclusion and serve to distract from rational consideration of relevant premises or information. > **[Appeal to emotion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion)** > > Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones (meaning the same in Latin) is an informal fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence. This kind of appeal to emotion is irrelevant to or distracting from the facts of the argument (a so-called "red herring") and encompasses several logical fallacies, including appeal to consequences, appeal to fear, appeal to flattery, appeal to pity, appeal to rid Ap... Gender-critical ideology lacks compassion to the plight of transgender people. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And the fact you believe a certain statement does not make anyone who disagrees a bad person, or oblige us to base policy on it. I haven’t claimed anyone who disagrees with me is a “bad person.” I haven’t argued that you are “obliged to make policy” based on my positions. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1628 "2020-07-17T14:41:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …just because you managed to use the words “intersectional feminist” in a sentence doesn’t mean that you understand what those words mean. Does anyone else see this insane comment? Maybe I’m having a fever dream hallucination again. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1629 "2020-07-17T14:42:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Lots of people have a perfectly rational, objective approach to truth, and can agree on usefully clear facts and definitions, when it comes to some things, and take a position of faith on others. History is chock full of people who were pioneering scientists and also deeply religious. TWAW is a spiritual belief, not a position of supported fact, and I’m not going to say spiritual beliefs are something a person shouldn’t hold. They should not, however, be mistaken for truth. That’s fair, and explains the witch-hunt like treatment of women who publicly disagree with those spiritual beliefs. The video Banquet\_Bear linked to explained how repeating a phrase makes people more likely to believe it’s true, which I suppose is his explanation why ‘transwomen are women’ has become such a mantra for the movement. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1630 "2020-07-17T14:42:39Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I just came across the story below and I would like to get the thoughts of the crowd. If we are to believe the man’s version of events, he hadn’t done anything wrong; he was the victim of an overreacting child. But I think the 6 year old girl did the right thing by screaming, and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. Did the man claim to be transgender? No? Then how is this story relevant to this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1631 "2020-07-17T14:44:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Did the man claim to be transgender? No? Then how is this story relevant to this discussion? You need too much hand holding when it comes to drawing inferences from things. Perhaps someone else will answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1632 "2020-07-17T14:44:43Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > You asserted that TWAW is an intersectional feminist position. For something to be an intersectional feminist position, it actually has to _be_ that. A mere assertion without the support of a rational argument is nothingness. …if its good for the goose then its good for the gander. The position “anyone who says they are a woman is woman" is arguably not a position held by every trans activist as can be clearly shown by a fair reading in this thread. Almost everyone here, including myself, have agreed that not every circumstance is clear, that yes, there do need to be guidelines for edge cases and not everything can and should be “black and white.” But if you want to accept monstro’s blanket “this is the trans activists position” then you should have no problem accepting my blanket “intersectional feminism” statement as well. [Intersectionality](https://www.apa.org/pi/aids/resources/exchange/2016/04/gender-affirmation) [is](https://www.equality-network.org/our-work/intersectional/) [inherently](https://thedailyaztec.com/96774/news/the-pride-center-highlights-intersectionality-and-transgender-women-for-the-day-of-the-dead/) [pro-transgender](https://www.hanxofficial.com/blogs/naked-truths/what-is-intersectional-feminism) [rights](https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/integrating-identities/) > [@YWTF](#): > > Does anyone else see this insane comment? Maybe I’m having a fever dream hallucination again. You edited the comment before I had a chance to reply. A shame. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1633 "2020-07-17T14:46:18Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > You need too much hand holding when it comes to drawing inferences from things. Perhaps someone else will answer your question Perhaps you need hand holding when it comes to providing links to stories where men have claimed to be transgender in order to get into the women’s bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1634 "2020-07-17T14:49:32Z")
Since you’ve provided no evidence for any of your claims, I’m not interested. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1635 "2020-07-17T15:03:34Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Apparently BanquetBear doesn’t believe there is such a thing as truth, which explains a lot. …truth is **subjective**. What you believe to be true and what I believe to be true are often two different things. > [@DemonTree](#): > > The video Banquet\_Bear linked to explained how repeating a phrase makes people more likely to believe it’s true, which I suppose is his explanation why ‘transwomen are women’ has become such a mantra for the movement. No, transwomen are women is a "mantra because of [this](https://www.wire.org.au/feminist-solidarity-transwomen/). It was a show of solidarity, one advocated by many cis-women. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Since you’ve provided no evidence for any of your claims, I’m not interested. BYE!!! ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1636 "2020-07-17T15:09:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But if you want to accept monstro’s blanket “this is the trans activists position” then you should have no problem accepting my blanket “intersectional feminism” statement as well. Lol. I don’t have to take monstro’s word about anything. [TWAW is on Stonewall’s main webpage](https://www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans), and there is zero nuance about who really is a woman and who isn’t. And so no, I don’t have to accept anything you say either. It may be hard to appreciate this, but not everyone blindly believes what others tell them. We do have brains for a reason, and some of us regularly use ours. My brain is telling me right now that a man who acts like he has _any_ business lecturing a black woman about intersectional feminism is a man who should be mercilessly mocked and held up as the kind of mansplainer books are written about. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1637 "2020-07-17T15:26:34Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Lol. I don’t have to take monstro’s word about anything. [TWAW is on Stonewall’s main webpage](https://www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans), and there is zero nuance about who really is a woman and who isn’t. …LOL. You’ve just linked to a massive resource of 22 questions and answers that have extremely nuanced answers yet you claim that it contains “zero nuance.” Unbelievable. > [@YWTF](#): > > My brain is telling me right now that a man who acts like he has _any_ business lecturing a black woman about intersectional feminism is a man who should be mercilessly mocked and held up as the kind of mansplainer books are written about. What do you think? My belief is that you have been using your **identity as a shield** to your opinions throughout this thread. I have sympathy for your position. But [gender critical feminism is not intersectional.](https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2020/6/explainer-intersectional-feminism-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters) And my brain is telling me right now that [trans-gender rights in the United States](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/us/politics/trump-transgender-rights.html) are in big fucking trouble, that [transgender suicide attempt numbers are at shocking levels](https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen), that they face [severe discrimination](https://www.hrc.org/resources/understanding-the-transgender-community), and if the consequences of me speaking up are that I get accused of being a “mansplainer” then that is a risk that I’m willing to take. Its the least I can do. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1638 "2020-07-17T15:44:14Z")
You are welcome! ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1639 "2020-07-17T15:48:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My belief is that you have been using your **identity as a shield** to your opinions throughout this thread. I have sympathy for your position. But [gender critical feminism is not intersectional.](https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2020/6/explainer-intersectional-feminism-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters) And my brain is telling me right now that [trans-gender rights in the United States](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/us/politics/trump-transgender-rights.html) are in big fucking trouble, that [transgender suicide attempt numbers are at shocking levels](https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen), that they face [severe discrimination](https://www.hrc.org/resources/understanding-the-transgender-community), and if the consequences of me speaking up are that I get accused of being a “mansplainer” then that is a risk that I’m willing to take. Its the least I can do. Again, you are just making assertions. There is no argumentation here, no substance, no logical case being made. I have little patience with emotional appeals about suicidal transgender people, when we’re talking about women’s rights. Why should I click on these random links when you can’t even come up with coherent justification for saying I don’t know what intersectional feminism is? You threw this at me apropos of jack shit, and I’m still sitting here dazzled by the sheer stupidity and arrogance behind that. I don’t know why you keep bringing up gender critical feminism either. I don’t subscribe to the belief that socialization explains 100% why men and women differ in their behaviors and interests, which is a fundamental GC position. It seems likely to me there are biological differences that could explain certain tendencies (such as sexual conduct and aggression) that impact personality and other manifestations of self. That doesn’t mean I believe in gender the way that gender ideologist do. The idea that a female gender could exist in the brain independent from the rest of the body requires scientific support that is lacking. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1640 "2020-07-17T15:52:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …truth is **subjective**. What you believe to be true and what I believe to be true are often two different things. Or - shocker - one of us could be wrong. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Since you’ve provided no evidence for any of your claims, I’m not interested. It would be better to say, that since you have announced you don’t think it necessary to back up your arguments with evidence, it isn’t productive to debate with you further. PS. Speaking up on a message board doesn’t do diddly-squat to improve trans rights in America. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1641 "2020-07-17T15:56:11Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Again, you are just making assertions. There is no argumentation here, no substance, no logical case being made. …yes an opinion is often an assertion, we are posting in a forum dedicated to expressing our opinions, I’m asserting my opinion the exact same way as you are asserting yours. > [@YWTF](#): > > Why should I click on these random links when you can’t even come up with coherent justification for saying I don’t know what intersectional feminism is? You have no obligation to click those links. > [@YWTF](#): > > Again, you are just making assertions. There is no argumentation here, no substance, no logical case being made. **I have little patience with emotional appeals about suicidal transgender people** , when we’re talking about women’s rights. “Lack of compassion.” Ticks box. This thread is about JK Rowling and the trans furore. You might be talking about just women’s rights. But this thread is about much more than that. > [@YWTF](#): > > I don’t know why you keep bringing up gender critical feminism either. I don’t subscribe to the belief that socialization explains 100% why men and women differ in their behaviors and interests, which is a fundamental GC position. It seems likely to me there are biological differences that could explain certain tendencies (such as sexual conduct and aggression) that impact personality and other manifestations of self. That doesn’t mean I believe in gender the way that gender ideologist do. The idea that a female gender could exist in the brain independent from the rest of the body requires scientific support that is lacking. I bring up gender critical feminism because you keep repeating gender critical talking points. And you’ve just done it again. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1642 "2020-07-17T16:02:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Or - shocker - one of us could be wrong. …yes, you are wrong. Concession accepted. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It would be better to say, that since you have announced you don’t think it necessary to back up your arguments with evidence, it isn’t productive to debate with you further. Except I have been backing up some of my assertions with evidence. Other assertions have been merely opinions, often the challenges to those opinions have been disingenuous, so I don’t take those challenges seriously. > [@DemonTree](#): > > PS. Speaking up on a message board doesn’t do diddly-squat to improve trans rights in America. Speaking up will do plenty in support of transgender people **that want to post here**. This should be a safe and welcoming place . Unfortunately it often isn’t. And you aren’t helping. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1643 "2020-07-17T16:08:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Lack of compassion.” Ticks box. > > This thread is about JK Rowling and the trans furore. You might be talking about just women’s rights. But this thread is about much more than that. The thread is increasingly making it obvious that the well-being of trans women will be staunchly protected and defended by progressives even if doing so means increasing the danger that women and girls are already forced to live with. I just wish that y’all would just cop to this position. Just admit that this what you believe so we don’t have to hide behind disingenuous rhetoric anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=83)