# J K Rowling and the trans furore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795 "2020-06-16T18:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 99
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1964 "2020-07-30T21:33:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure: it’s based on the “F” I ticked on my driver’s license application form, which in turn is ultimately based on my mother’s obstetrician’s cursory inspection of my external genitalia when I was born (and subsequently on the fact that there were no later physical phenomena or subjective perceptions that contradicted the obstetrician’s initial assessment). Certainly nobody at the DMV required me to show them my coochie before printing “F” on my driver’s license. You are 100% correct. You were classified at birth as female by a medical professional trained in knowing the difference between penises and vaginas. This is how it works for everyone. Essentially, when we talk about sex-based policies, we should be thinking in terms of what is listed on your official govt documents. If M is on someone’s birth certificate, then the eyes of the law sees them as male. A male may ignore this designation and call himself a female, but it’s not unconstitutional for the government to treat him based on what’s on his birth certificate rather than the idea he has about himself in his head. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1965 "2020-07-30T21:36:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But the fact that no one is pushing for this underscores how gender identity validation (aka warm fuzzies) is being elevated over actual opportunities (those things we might be tempted to call “rights”). What do you mean, “no one is pushing for this”? [E.g.:](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190723092111.htm) > [@](#): > > Gender binary in elite sports should be abandoned, researchers urge > > Existing gender categories in sport should perhaps be abandoned in favour of a more “nuanced” approach in the new transgender era, University of Otago researchers say. […] > > The potential solutions include excluding transwomen from competing in the women’s division, creating a third division for transwomen and intersex women and calculating a handicap for transwomen based on their testosterone levels – similar to that used in golf. > > Their preferred option is an extension of this with a proposed algorithm that could account for a range of parameters, both physical and social […] ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1966 "2020-07-30T21:52:13Z")
For what it’s worth, I just wanted to say that I’m finding the debate here very informative. Thank you to all for your contributions so far. This is a complicated issue for which there seem to be no easy solutions but the discussion is a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1967 "2020-07-30T22:00:33Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > You were classified at birth as female by a medical professional trained in knowing the difference between penises and vaginas. This is how it works for everyone. Essentially, when we talk about sex-based policies, we should be thinking in terms of what is listed on your official govt documents. > > If M is on someone’s birth certificate, then the eyes of the law sees them as male. A male may ignore this designation and call himself a female, but it’s not unconstitutional for the government to treat him based on what’s on his birth certificate rather than the idea he has about himself in his head. This assertion continues to ignore the fact that [this physical binary classification is not at all so simple and straightforward for many intersex people](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/intersex-children-pose-ethical-dilemma-doctors-parents-genital/story?id=13153068): > [@](#): > > An estimated 1 in 2,000 children born each year are neither boy nor girl – they are intersex, part of a group of about 60 conditions that fall under the diagnosis of disorders of sexual development (DSD). […] > > Standard medical treatment has been to look at the genitals, determine the gender and then correct it surgically. > > But now, many are challenging the ethical basis of surgery, knowing that gender identity is complex, and doctors can sometimes get it wrong, not knowing how a child will feel about their gender assignment when they grow up. It also ignores the question of whether transgender identity in non-intersex people is a real, normal (though rare) neurobiological phenomenon, for which there seems to be [quite a bit of scientific evidence](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/): > [@](#): > > Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation > > Sexual identity and sexual orientation are independent components of a person’s sexual identity. These dimensions are most often in harmony with each other and with an individual’s genital sex, although not always. The present review discusses the relationship of sexual identity and sexual orientation to prenatal factors that act to shape the development of the brain and the expression of sexual behaviours in animals and humans. One major influence discussed relates to organisational effects that the early hormone environment exerts on both gender identity and sexual orientation. Evidence that gender identity and sexual orientation are masculinised by prenatal exposure to testosterone and feminised in it absence is drawn from basic research in animals, correlations of biometric indices of androgen exposure and studies of clinical conditions associated with disorders in sexual development. There are, however, important exceptions to this theory that have yet to be resolved. Family and twin studies indicate that genes play a role, although no specific candidate genes have been identified. […] existing empirical evidence makes it clear that there is a significant biological contribution to the development of an individual’s sexual identity and sexual orientation. This strongly suggests, at the very least, that summarily dismissing transgender identity as merely “an idea he has about himself in his head” is an unscientific approach. If feelings of transgender identity reflect a genuine neurobiological reality of the brain, then ISTM that that shouldn’t be lazily ignored in favor of relying solely on the anatomical reality of the genitals. After all, we as a society already tried that approach on the issue of sexual orientation, and it didn’t work out well. We used to say that if M is on someone’s birth certificate, then the government is entitled to treat him as someone who should be sexually and maritally partnered with a woman, and denied the right to sexually or maritally partner with another man. Many homosexual men (among others) objected to this, but the government insisted on its right to impose its own view of his sexual orientation “based on what’s on his birth certificate rather than the idea he has about himself in his head”. Well, we as a society now (mostly) recognize that the “ideas people have about themselves in their heads” regarding whom they’re attracted to reflect a genuine neurobiological reality in their brain, rather than a delusion or abnormality that we’re entitled to ignore in favor of the overwhelmingly dominant societal norm of heterosexual attraction. So I’m not convinced that the “ideas people have about themselves in their heads” regarding their own gender identity should continue to be so patronizingly dismissed as less real or less important than a word on their birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1968 "2020-07-30T22:01:19Z")
Three researchers are pushing for it. But not trans activists. Not trans allies. There is no movement advocating for mixed-sex/gender sports leagues. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1969 "2020-07-30T22:09:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Three researchers are pushing for it. But not trans activists. Not trans allies. [Sure there are.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-sport-trfn/sports-contests-test-new-models-to-give-fair-play-to-lgbt-competitors-idUSKBN1XE0CA) > [@](#): > > To fill the void, Newman last year co-founded Limitless, which was described as Britain’s first non-gendered strength competition, a strongman-style contest with mixed gender categories where all are welcome to take part. […] > > Some sports bodies are bringing in different formats that could help include more trans and gender minority players. > > The LGBT International Powerlifting Championships last year introduced a third gender category for trans, non-binary and intersex athletes. > > A number of sports bodies are also experimenting with mixed-gender events in moves that could benefit trans, non-binary and intersex players. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1970 "2020-07-30T22:13:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > A mixed-sex league would demonstrate to the old-school unwoke folks the irrelevance of biological sex. But the fact that no one is pushing for this underscores how gender identity validation (aka warm fuzzies) is being elevated over actual opportunities (those things we might be tempted to call “rights”). They’re putting warm fuzzies ahead of biological reality in advice to schools: > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, schools often erroneously believe that a transgender student, particularly a transgender girl, will have a competitive advantage over the other players and therefore should not be allowed to compete on the team that matches their gender identity. Concerns regarding competitive advantage are unfounded and often grounded in sex stereotypes about the differences and abilities of males versus females. The female athletes in basically every single sport ever, apparently just aren’t trying hard enough to break those stereotypes. And in case you think they mean after hormone blockers: > [@](#): > > Also, pursuing medical treatment is a very personal decision that should be made > between the patient and their healthcare providers, without influence from the > school. Thus, requiring medical treatment to participate in sports is inappropriate. From [Schools In Transition - A Guide for Supporting Transgender Students in K-12 Schools](https://assets2.hrc.org/files/assets/resources/Schools-In-Transition.pdf?_ga=2.131363978.447167722.1596145685-1823775507.1595975967). What age does K-12 go up to? 17, 18? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1971 "2020-07-30T22:16:03Z")
More [mixed-sex sports advocacy](https://www.ozy.com/news-and-politics/should-all-sports-go-gender-neutral/87899/): > [@](#): > > In 2016, Lauren Lubin became the first non-binary [athlete](https://www.ozy.com/rising-stars/meet-the-leading-expert-on-trans-athletes/74134) to compete in the New York City marathon. Their call for a gender-neutral future in professional sports made headlines on race week […] > > Still, some playing fields are converging. In June 2017, mixed-gender events in athletics, swimming, table tennis and triathlon have been added to the Summer Olympics schedule in Tokyo 2020, with International Olympics Committee sports director Kit McConnell telling reporters at the time, “We have taken a really important step forward in terms of gender equality.” ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1972 "2020-07-30T22:21:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To fill the void, Newman last year co-founded Limitless, which was described as Britain’s first non-gendered strength competition, a strongman-style contest with mixed gender categories where all are welcome to take part. […] While I think it’s good they’re doing this, it only really works if there isn’t money or prestige at stake. Once there is some tangible benefit to winning, the people who are most able to win will rise to the top. I suspect that if these leagues had significant prize money, the sports would be dominated by cismen. I wonder if these sports would do anything to keep cismen out if they were dominating the rankings? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1973 "2020-07-30T22:23:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Okay, but again, the devil is in the details. How exactly should either of those alternatives be implemented so that “checks” or “spaces” or “services” perform their desired functions without being discriminatory? The second option is pretty much what we have now - you can change the sex on your birth certificate, but you need a diagnosis from a doctor and evidence to show you’ve been living as the target gender for some period of time. They probably could streamline the process without making it totally evidence free. The first option would be a world where as well as normalising the idea that a woman can have a penis, we also normalise the idea that a woman can compete on the men’s team and can use the men’s locker room. Same with non-binary people. You raised the issue of transmen. Would your solution involve sending anyone who identifies as a man to a male prison? If not, how can sending transwomen to a female prison be constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1974 "2020-07-30T22:26:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If feelings of transgender identity reflect a genuine neurobiological reality of the brain, then ISTM that that shouldn’t be lazily ignored in favor of relying solely on the anatomical reality of the genitals. I would be OK with not lazily ignoring “feelings of transgender identity” if it were acceptable to tell people “Hey, your feelings are valid, but they simply don’t meet the bar we’ve established for transgender identity”. But the message that is being relayed is that _any_ expressed feeling is sufficient to get the transgender identity, which then obligates folks to treat any expressed feeling as evidence of womanhood or manhood. If having a bar for the transgender identity is unreasonable and oppressive, then OK. I’m not a transgender person, so I’m not going to tell trans folks that they need to gatekeep their identity. But allowing the transgender identity to be a clown car does not and should not obligate us to turn all other gender and sex classes into clown cars. It is not inherently oppressive to tell folks that if they want to be treated as a woman or man, they’ve got to do more than just have _any_ feeling, because “women” and “men” are gender classes that aren’t constructed around feelings. And if they want to be treated as female or male, they’ve definitely got to do more than to just have “any” feeling because these are biological categories. Having “any” feeling entitles a person to respect and basic social courtesies (pronoun usage). But it shouldn’t entitle a person to everything they may feel they are entitled to. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1975 "2020-07-30T22:27:28Z")
That’s good to know. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1976 "2020-07-30T22:31:36Z")
> [@Eric Azersky](#): > > I think gender-neutral sports are terrific for children, when sports are played for recreation and health rather than competition. My secondary school had mixed sex sports. It sucked. Whenever we did team sports, the boys would dominate the game, and only passed the ball to the top few girls - understandable, because they wanted to win. But the rest of us would rarely get a chance to actually play. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1977 "2020-07-30T22:42:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This assertion continues to ignore the fact that [this physical binary classification is not at all so simple and straightforward for many intersex people](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/intersex-children-pose-ethical-dilemma-doctors-parents-genital/story?id=13153068): Intersex people are given a sex classification the same way everyone else is. Not sure if you’re aware of this but very few of them reject that classification (i.e become trans). So, again, what is the point you’re trying to make on the unwitting backs of intersex people? That the existence of 1.7% of people with developmental abnormalities means it’s wrong to classifiy the remaining ~98% using the presence or absence of certain reproductive features? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1978 "2020-07-30T22:49:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You raised the issue of transmen. Would your solution involve sending anyone who identifies as a man to a male prison? If not, how can sending transwomen to a female prison be constitutional? I don’t think I claimed to have a “solution”. The constitutionality issues of transgender prisoner placement seem to have produced something of a [mishmash of court results](http://jailhouselaw.org/issues-of-importance-to-transgender-prisoners/), largely for the reasons bolded below: > [@](#): > > In general, courts have said that prison officials have the power to decide where transgender people and people with intersex conditions should be placed. However, just like all other prisoners, prison officials have to keep transgender prisoners safe from substantial risk of serious harm, whether they are in male or female facilities. […] > > Some transgender women have brought lawsuits against prison officials for categorizing them as men and placing them in male facilities, rather than treating them as women and placing them in female facilities. So far, we have found no court decisions that rule in favor of the transgender woman on this issue. There have been several unsuccessful cases. In Meriweather v. Faulkner, 821 F.2d 408 (7th Cir. 1987), a court dismissed a transgender woman’s argument that placing her in a male facility violated her Equal Protection rights. The court relied in part on a Supreme Court decision, Meachum v. Fano, 427 U.S. 215 (1976), that stated that prisoners do not have the right to be placed in any particular facility. Other unsuccessful cases are Lamb v. Maschner, 633 F. Supp. 351 (D. Kan. 1986); Lucrecia v. Samples, NO. C-93-3651, 1995 WL 630016 (N.D. Cal. Oct. 16, 1995); and Long v. Nix, 877 F. Supp. 1358, 1366-67 (S.D. Iowa 1995). > > However, we know of at least one successful challenge by a transgender woman to placement in a male facility in New York. In that case, the prison officials she sued agreed to place her in a female facility in exchange for her ending the law suit against them. The case was settled in 1990. […] > > On one occasion, a non-transgender woman brought a lawsuit because a transgender woman was housed with her in a female facility. The plaintiff, a non-transgender woman, argued that a transgender woman should not be housed with her and that prison officials were violating her privacy rights. The court ruled against the plaintiff, and said that the prison officials were not liable for placing a transgender woman in a female facility with her. Crosby v. Reynolds, 763 F. Supp. 666 (D. Me. 1991). ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1979 "2020-07-30T23:11:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It also ignores the question of whether transgender identity in non-intersex people is a real, normal (though rare) neurobiological phenomenon, for which there seems to be [quite a bit of scientific evidence](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/): So great. This means we can start testing people to distinguish true trans from fake trans, right? Funny how I keep hearing about scientific evidence, but none of that evidence is being used for diagnostic purposes. In fact, the movement doesn’t want diagnosticians standing in the way of transitioning at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1980 "2020-07-30T23:18:15Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Intersex people are given a sex classification the same way everyone else is. Well, no, except in the sense that they end up with the designation “M” or “F” like everybody else. In the US, that is: [some other countries are implementing or considering policies for postponing or omitting binary sex designation on official documents](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-lgbt-rights-trfn/austria-issues-first-intersex-birth-certificate-after-four-year-battle-idUSKCN24H33M). > [@](#): > > Regulations issued by Austria’s interior ministry after the 2018 court ruling state that a child whose sex cannot be determined should have “open” on their birth certificate until a decision can be made by them or their legal representative. […] > > The Netherlands is considering removing gender from ID cards by 2025, as part of a plan to “limit unnecessary sex registration where possible”, which advocates welcomed as making life easier for transgender, intersex and non-binary people. As my previous cite noted, the way in which intersex people get that M or F classification involves a lot more debatability, and usually surgery, than everybody else gets. In other words, intersex people at birth usually get significant alterations to the physique they were born with in order to make them fit more neatly into the typical parameters of the standard “M” or “F” boxes, irrespective of whether their physique was intrinsically unhealthy or malfunctioning in any way. That’s not automatically a bad thing if the individuals themselves are okay with it, but it does illustrate how we tend to prioritize conformity to this very rigid classification scheme over biological reality, when biological reality happens not to match the scheme. > [@YWTF](#): > > So, again, what is the point you’re trying to make […] That the existence of 1.7% of people with developmental abnormalities means it’s wrong to classifiy the remaining ~98% using the presence or absence of certain reproductive features? It means that it’s wrong to treat that classification system as a universal binary based in biological reality, without acknowledging that intersex people’s lack of conformity to that rigid binary classification is also based in biological reality. I don’t think it’s ethical to prioritize a tidy binary classification scheme over the messy reality of the biology of the rare, but real, individuals who don’t fit neatly into it. And that also raises the issue of the reality of transgender identity as a neurobiological phenomenon. If some small minority of people genuinely have an unusual brain configuration—call it a developmental abnormality, or a normal but rare variant, or whatever—that causes them to perceive themselves as innately a different gender from that associated with their genitals and/or chromosomes, I don’t think we should insist on prioritizing the tidy binary classification scheme of “man-penis, woman-vagina” over that messy reality. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1981 "2020-07-30T23:22:25Z")
Another fine example of how women aren’t allowed to talk about problems we face without specifically including trans women. > ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1982 "2020-07-30T23:31:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It means that it’s wrong to treat that classification system as a universal binary based in biological reality, without acknowledging that intersex people’s lack of conformity to that rigid binary classification is also based in biological reality. There are plenty of ways of dealing with intersex conditions, and these ways in no way necessitate changes to the conventional process we categorize people into sex classes. They just don’t. One has nothing to do with the other. And neither do the issues that apply to intersex have anything to do with transgender. The former relates to reproductive organs, genitalia, and/or chromosomes and the latter relates to feelings inhabiting the mind. An intersex person has a diagnosable condition that has objective criteria behind it. Transgender is an unfalsifiable state that is 100% subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795/1983 "2020-07-30T23:33:12Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > So great. This means we can start testing people to distinguish true trans from fake trans, right? > > Funny how I keep hearing about scientific evidence, but none of that evidence is being used for diagnostic purposes. Why would it be? After all, there’s also lots of scientific evidence—some of it mentioned right there in my quoted excerpt—that sexual orientation is a real, normal (though comparatively rare) neurobiological phenomenon. But we aren’t testing self-identified homosexual people to distinguish “true gay” from “fake gay”. (Or, for that matter, testing self-identified heterosexual people to distinguish “true straight” from "fake straight.) Such fakery is in fact dangerous, as there are documented instances of people pretending to be gay to facilitate the commission of crimes: [Man pretending to be gay lured woman into his home, brutally raped her](https://www.newsbreak.com/news/1517800551704/prosecutors-man-pretending-to-be-gay-lured-woman-into-his-home-brutally-raped-her) [Man pretended to be gay rent boy to blackmail men](https://metro.co.uk/2018/04/19/man-pretended-gay-rent-boy-blackmail-men-forcing-one-come-7479249/) [Benefit cheat pretended to be a lesbian](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefit-cheat-pretended-lesbian-caroline-2478566) But most self-identified gay people, like most self-identified transgender people, aren’t in fact faking their identity in order to commit crimes. ISTM that that, plus the immense logistical difficulties and privacy invasion involved in such testing, is sufficient reason why we’re not brainscanning everybody to try to determine who’s a “fake”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=98) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-furore/855795.md?page=100)