# Jaded blue-collar coffee anti-elitism rears its ugly head **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404 "2007-02-01T12:46:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/201 "2007-02-04T18:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] I drink plain coffee all day long, every day (although these days I usually pour espresso into it–it generally takes 6-8 shots to get through a couple chapters of homework at midnight after closing up at work). [/QUOTE] Suddenly the intensity of your tirade is much more explicable. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/202 "2007-02-04T19:25:27Z")
[QUOTE=astro] “American coffee?” \ the sun kissed plantations of Hawaii. [/QUOTE] Did Hawaii secede while I wasn’t looking ?? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/203 "2007-02-04T20:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Because “Simply asking for a ‘coffee’” would go something like “I’ll have a coffee.” Maybe even “I’ll have a coffee please.” Indeed. Count me in for somebody who, no matter how froofy the coffee place, if I want a medium black coffee, orders a “medium black coffee” (_café filtre moyen, noir_)and has always, but always, received exactly what I ordered with no back talk. If there was ever a problem in comprehension due to overly precious size names, universal behaviour in this part of the world is for the clerk to pick up a mug and show it to me with a questioning expression or word, so that I can assent or deny. If there’s a doubt or a precision needed, I’m asked about it. That way I don’t get the wrong coffee. Quel horreur. Bottom line, people like those described in the OP are determined to waste everyone’s time over a problem that doesn’t exist, and that’s obnoxious behaviour. (Bonus coffee anecdote: My mother once went into the Starbucks near her hospital in the afternoon, and realized she wanted a coffee smaller than the ones on offer. She decided to flex her Italian muscle and ordered a “piccolo” coffee, and was pleasantly surprised to receive a _small_ - i..e. smaller than a “medium-sized” - coffee.) ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/204 "2007-02-04T20:42:05Z")
There was a huge flap in the Seattle area about the Starbuck’s employees complaining about how people were asking for less coffee in the cup, or pouring it down the drain and then making their own “mistos” which is basically 1/2 coffee and 1/2 milk or 1/2 soy milk with some foam on top. It’s cheaper (about 1.95 for a small). But to cut the price down further the customers were ordering a regular small coffee and then making their own mistos out of the free milk/cream offered at the napkin bar/area. Starbucks employees get pants hot over it, internet tirade ensues and the Seattle media even picked it up (last I checked). Hysterical. I didn’t realise the employees at Starbuck’s were so hyper-sensitive over how many cream bottles they go through because the customers are cheating the system. Is it run like Walmart, I’m curious? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/205 "2007-02-04T21:43:52Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > It’s no harder than making a milk shake No, it’s not harder to make it at all than it is to make a milk shake. But it’s much harder and requires experience to make it _well_. Really good foam only has bubbles _barely_ visible to the naked eye, and a smooth and even consitency, it separates easily from the milk and you can stand a spoon up in it. The difference is very noticeable from an end-user standpoint if you know what you’re looking for. > [@Vinyl Turnip](#): > > Suddenly the intensity of your tirade is much more explicable. No, that’s just how high my caffeine tolerance is. Last night I had 12 coffee drinks in total–eight shots of espresso and four cups of coffee–in four hours and barely stayed awake and alert enough to read my Linguistics textbook. And by 4 AM I was still tired enough to blow right through a stop sign without noticing it and get a ticket. > [@anu-la1979](#): > > then making their own “mistos” which is basically 1/2 coffee and 1/2 milk or 1/2 soy milk with some foam on top Ah. The rest of the world calls this a “cafe au lait”. > [@anu-la1979](#): > > Hysterical. I didn’t realise the employees at Starbuck’s were so hyper-sensitive over how many cream bottles they go through because the customers are cheating the system. Is it run like Walmart, I’m curious? I don’t know what that last part means (I don’t shop at either Starbucks or Wal-Mart), but where I work we don’t care about how much cream people use. I mean, you should see the way my parents drink coffee–they use so little grounds that the super gourmet shit hardly tastes like anything at all, and then add massive loads of cream and sugar. I can’t drink coffee at their place anymore because it’s just a frustrating experience for me. Anyway, the point is, if people use a lot of cream and sugar I chalk it up to their personal preference. Even if it’s not, who cares? Our coffee _is_ expensive–because it’s that much better–and I could never afford to drink it regularly at full price, so who am I to judge? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/206 "2007-02-04T22:17:04Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Anyway, had the guy just said “one regular coffee, black” he’d’ve gotten his point across without wasting his and the OP’s time. Never understood people who make speeches about inefficiency. [/QUOTE] Irony is not a metal. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/207 "2007-02-05T03:38:09Z")
> [@](#): > > **fetus** said: > No, it’s not harder to make it at all than it is to make a milk shake. But it’s much harder and requires experience to make it well. Really good foam only has bubbles barely visible to the naked eye, and a smooth and even consitency, it separates easily from the milk and you can stand a spoon up in it. The difference is very noticeable from an end-user standpoint if you know what you’re looking for. I still disagree that it’s that difficult at all. I’ve done it, and I have absolutely no formal training in making coffee. It’s something that took me ten minutes to learn on my own with the instruction book to my espresso pot. The fancy name for what is basically another variety of fast food worker might’ve given some the idea that it’s difficult, but it’s not. If it were such a refined skill, there wouldn’t be scads of people who could do it for seven bucks an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/208 "2007-02-05T06:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] I still disagree that it’s that difficult at all. I’ve done it, and I have absolutely no formal training in making coffee. It’s something that took me ten minutes to learn on my own with the instruction book to my espresso pot. The fancy name for what is basically another variety of fast food worker might’ve given some the idea that it’s difficult, but it’s not. If it were such a refined skill, there wouldn’t be scads of people who could do it for seven bucks an hour. [/QUOTE] I don’t think **fetus** is saying it’s a skill that requires years of intensive training, just that it does require some training. Also, the fact that someone with basic training can make a drinkable espresso doesn’t exclude the possibility that with _more_ training you can make an espresso that is quantifiably “better.” Whether or not _you_ care if the foam is slightly better, there _are_ people who do. I’ve known a few people who’ve worked at a local coffee chain (Canada), and although you can serve a basic coffee on the first day and they train you pretty quickly on how to make a good espresso, that isn’t the full extent of their training. They also have to learn a lot about different types of coffee/roasts and other related stuff. After a couple months of employment they’re tested, and you don’t get a pay raise past entry level until you demonstrate sufficient knowledge. Is this esoteric arcana that would be impossible for anyone else to learn? Nope. Probably you could pick it up in a week or two of intensive study, and a few weeks of practice making different drinks. However, that doesn’t mean the average customer could hop over the counter and do the same job right away. Also, you seem to be under the impression that _Barista_ is a term that Starbucks or someone in America invented to help the unskilled little wage slaves feel better about themselves. :dubious: From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espresso#Baristas): > [@](#): > > Baristas > > Barista is a term originating in Italy; it literally translates to “bar man” or “bar person”. In Italy, it is the person who professionally prepares espresso based drinks, as well as other non-coffee based beverages including those with alcohol, in cafes or “bars”. > > In North America and other parts of the world, the title Barista has been in long use, especially in Italian-style cafes and coffeehouses, but the use of the term gained mainstream popularly when Starbucks started to call their counter staff by this title, prior to and around the time they began their expansion outside of Seattle. In the late 1990s and beyond, the term barista became synonymous with the person in a cafe who specialized in preparing espresso-based beverages for customers. Along with this came the term “home barista” to distinguish the home espresso enthusiast who took care to practice this craft to a level that sometimes matched, and sometimes surpassed, the levels exhibited in many cafes. > > In Italy and other parts of Europe, the barista is frequently considered a career position, often with skills and training passed down generation to generation. In other parts of the world, the job of the barista has been frequently seen as an employment choice for young people, one to get them started in employment, but frequently it is not seen as a career choice. > > There is a current movement both outside of Europe and even within parts of the continent to build pride and professionalism among baristas, encouraging them to consider their work as a serious craft, worthy of the respect granted to other food preparation artisans. In some ways this trend is meant to follow the traditions in places like Italy, France, and Portugal where the barista is considered a respectable career decision. In other ways, this trend is part of what is seen as the “Third Wave” in coffee, where transparency in information sharing is paramount, and open discussion of ideas, concepts, opinions, and education are shared, even amongst competing businesses in the world of coffee and espresso. (Background: Third Wave Article) The trend is part of the bigger process in specialty coffee to promote coffee as a culinary drink, not as something “regular” or average. > > The barista movement includes the creation of the Barista Guild of America, and the development of Barista Championships, competitions that build from regional events in a wide variety of countries (including the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Great Britain, Norway, Sweden and many more) and culminate in the annual World Barista Championship. In response to the shortage of Baristas companies are starting to create machines that an untrained person can create a drink by merely pushing a button. One example of this is the Aroma 3500 machine from HLF Italian Design in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/209 "2007-02-05T07:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Ah. The rest of the world calls this a “cafe au lait”. [/QUOTE] Or Cafe Con Leche in Spanish speaking countries. Cafe au lait and cafe con leche are made with heated milk and strong coffee, so just pouring cold milk over coffee is not the same. I drink a double short latte which is about as close as you can get to a cafe au lait at Starbucks. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/210 "2007-02-05T07:52:23Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I still disagree that it’s that difficult at all. I’ve done it, and I have absolutely no formal training in making coffee. It’s something that took me ten minutes to learn on my own with the instruction book to my espresso pot. Apparently you didn’t read my post, or you simply replaced my words with the ones you wanted to read. I won’t waste any more of my time on the issue, then. > [@Waenara](#): > > However, that doesn’t mean the average customer could hop over the counter and do the same job right away. Holy crap! It took 208 posts to get here. Better late than never, **Waenara** , thanks. To the majority of the rest of you (a few have been helpful or at least less than blatantly ignorant), who have apparently been spending the whole time sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU”, I hope you find a way to develop some reading comprehension skills someday, or at least gain some respect for the working man. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/211 "2007-02-05T07:56:11Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I drink a double short latte which is about as close as you can get to a cafe au lait at Starbucks. You can’t get a cafe au lait at Starbucks? I also heard today that they water down their tea lattes (I had a customer who ordered a tea latte with “no water”–before her friend explained that Starbucks waters them down, I must’ve looked at her like she was from Mars) and I’ve been hearing for a while that they over-roast their coffee. Is there a reason people actually go there? Must be marketing or something. Maybe they put cocaine in the milk. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/212 "2007-02-05T08:08:09Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] Did Hawaii secede while I wasn’t looking ?? [/QUOTE] No, **astro** is just one of those people who aren’t sure that Hawaii (and New Mexico) are actual states. (“Do they take American money?”) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/213 "2007-02-05T09:52:13Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Not without practicing for a good while. Wait, no, you’re right–how could I possibly know? It’s not like I do it for a living, or anything. I’m just some dumb coffee slave. I didn’t say you didn’t have the mental capacity to do my job if you had the training and practice. But you _don’t_ have the training or the practice–that’s why you have to come to me (well, someone like me) for a decent cappucino. [/QUOTE] fetus, nobody’s saying you’re a dumbass or anything, but that doesn’t make coffee slinging a “profession.” \*\*Of course \*\* someone can’t hop over the bar and instantly make a cappucino the way you can. You can’t hop over the counter and make a Big Bacon Classic the way they can, either. I’m sure nobody could pick up the job in just a few minutes and do it the way you do but there’s no job in the world, really, that you can’t get pretty good at given a few months of practice. All people are syaing is that slinging joes in a coffee house is an unskilled food service job, and applying a special title to it is kind of silly. Perhaps it’s not your job title, in which case, great. But then, I’m the kind of guy who’s thoroughly convinced that most people can do most jobs, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/214 "2007-02-05T10:53:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > fetus, nobody’s saying you’re a dumbass or anything, but that doesn’t make coffee slinging a “profession.” Depends on what you mean by “profession”, I guess. My definition is “work done regularly in exchange for money”. What’s yours? > [@RickJay](#): > > Of course someone can’t hop over the bar and instantly make a cappucino the way you can. > [@RickJay](#): > > I’ll bet you a hundred dollars that, given the same equipment, I could brew a cappucino every bit as good as yours. Do you sincerely believe both of the above statements? If so, may I have a bowl of whatever you’re smoking? > [@RickJay](#): > > You can’t hop over the counter and make a Big Bacon Classic the way they can, either. I can’t? What learned skills are involved in grilling a burger and bacon and throwing lettuce, cheese and a tomato on top? > [@RickJay](#): > > there’s no job in the world, really, that you can’t get pretty good at given a few months of practice Other than the jobs you have to study intensely for 4-15 years to get? Or can you figure those out in a couple of months, too? > [@RickJay](#): > > and applying a special title to it is kind of silly Did you read the Wikipedia article **Waenara** quoted? Or my post where I noted that I only ever say the word “barista” out of habit, and rarely then, due to the connotation the word has here? The idea that preparing espresso drinks is an unskilled job is distinctly (North) American, and the term “barista” isn’t. What do you think of bartenders? ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/215 "2007-02-05T13:05:10Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > You _can’t_ make a cappucino as good as mine if you haven’t had the training and experience. It’s a fact, and I guarantee an objective study based on the categories you compare such things by would prove it. Doesn’t mean it’s a skill that will take me very far, and it doesn’t mean I’m better than you. The fact that you read that into it says more about you than me. Whatever you say, flip-fry. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/216 "2007-02-05T15:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] What do you think of bartenders? [/QUOTE] I think that’s a good question Do those who object to “barista” object to “bartender”? [sub](Nevermind the fact that barista=bartender in Italian).[/sub] How hard is it to be a bartender anyways? 99.999% of them aren’t highly skilled (I’m thinking skilled = those professional bartenders who enter contests where you flip bottles around a la _Cocktail_). How hard is it to crack open a bottle of beer or pour a pint/jug? How hard is it to make a rum and coke? Even with “difficult” drinks, it wouldn’t take more than a couple minutes to learn how to make them. The hardest thing is learning the large number of drink recipes - but how hard is it to keep a reference list/book behind the bar? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/217 "2007-02-05T15:46:05Z")
[QUOTE=Waenara] I think that’s a good question Do those who object to “barista” object to “bartender”? [/QUOTE] No, because “bartender” has been around for ages and wasn’t introduced in a cack-handed attempt to convince customers that the same shitty coffee is now special in some way. Should a bartender ever try and convince me that he is now an “ale sommelier” or some such guff, I will be happy to extend just as much scorn in his direction. And yes, “barista” is an Italian word. So? “Pretentious; moi?” is a joke for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/218 "2007-02-05T16:35:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Of course someone can’t hop over the bar and instantly make a cappucino the way you can. > [and, later…] > I’ll bet you a hundred dollars that, given the same equipment, I could brew a cappucino every bit as good as yours. [QUOTE=fetus] Do you sincerely believe both of the above statements? If so, may I have a bowl of whatever you’re smoking? [/quote] Serious question: I presume, with some training and practice, I (or **RickJay** ) _could_ brew a cappucino every bit as good as yours. Right? So just how _much_ training and practice would I need? An hour? A day? A week, a month, a year, more? > [@fetus](#): > > What learned skills are involved in grilling a burger and bacon and throwing lettuce, cheese and a tomato on top? Based on your earlier comments, I’m not sure if this is a whoosh or not. But, assuming it’s not: I have no idea what skills it takes to make a (good) burger. But I have no idea what skills are involved in making a (good) cappucino, either. And since it (apparently) takes about the same time and number of steps to make both, my default assumption is the skill level is about the same. Is that unreasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/219 "2007-02-05T17:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] “Training”? What are they, labrador retreivers? [/QUOTE] Aw. The prospect of the “barista” or “burgero” being a happy labrador retreiver would be about the only thing that could tempt me into joining the pretentious mobs paying too much for their fatty treats. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404/220 "2007-02-05T23:23:49Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > No, because “bartender” has been around for ages and wasn’t introduced in a cack-handed attempt to convince customers that the same shitty coffee is now special in some way. Neither was “barista”. What’s your point? Starbucks (etc) can’t call their employees “bartenders” because in English that specifically means someone who serves alcohol. > [@zut](#): > > Serious question: I presume, with some training and practice, I (or RickJay) could brew a cappucino every bit as good as yours. Right? So just how much training and practice would I need? An hour? A day? A week, a month, a year, more? As good as mine? I’ve only been doing it for three months, so you’d probably need about three months. But I frequent another coffeehouse when a friend of mine works, specifically to have his cappucinos–he’s been doing it for five years and it shows. > [@zut](#): > > But, assuming it’s not: I have no idea what skills it takes to make a (good) burger. From what I know about grilling, it seems like the key is ingredients and seasoning, and after that you’re just cooking the burger (and whatever else needs to be cooked, like bacon) until it’s done without burning it. At a serious local restaurant (the example that comes to my mind is [Hodad’s](http://www.yelp.com/biz/nz_9juNiAC6JCZnUodslNA), though that is just speculation) I might believe that the guys who grill the burger also season it and, hell, maybe even pick the ingredients. But at Wendy’s, it seems like they just give the guys the parts and have them throw it together. I’m not saying I don’t respect them for putting in a day’s honest work, but it’s a different job. > [@zut](#): > > But I have no idea what skills are involved in making a (good) cappucino, either. It’s all in how you steam the milk. Good espresso is important, too, but the big deal is the milk foam. While steaming milk for a cappucino, you keep the steam wand at the right depth under the milk to fill it with bubbles and draw out the volume. Anybody can do that– **catsix** etc. are right. Where it gets tricky is doing it well–as I’ve mentioned earlier, good foam has bubbles barely visible to the naked eye and smooth, even consistency (there are a few tricks to help that part along). As I mentioned earlier, the standard test is to try to stand a spoon up in it (just the milk, not the cappucino). If the spoon stands up on its own and doesn’t fall to the side, you’ve got yourself some damn fine milk foam. It _is_ true that “baristas” don’t necessarily have any related skills before taking the job. In the US and Canada it _is_ an entry level job, and it’s not considered very important how well the employees can do it in a chain. I mean, it’s not like being a chef, where you practice all your life andhone your skills in school. Many people–myself included–never pulled a shot of espresso before becoming a “barista”. But you can tell the difference if you’re an aficionado, just like a foodie can tell the difference between an amateur chef who’s been tooling around for a little while and a pro who’s been doing it for years. > [@zut](#): > > And since it (apparently) takes about the same time and number of steps to make both Sounds about right. > [@zut](#): > > my default assumption is the skill level is about the same. Is that unreasonable? Yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jaded-blue-collar-coffee-anti-elitism-rears-its-ugly-head/390404.md?page=12)