# Jail or Jesus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889 "2011-09-28T15:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/81 "2011-09-29T03:41:50Z")
Yeah, I don’t care… the argument that it’s inherently unconstitutional has already been explored. I’m expressing a parallel concern that actual criminals are getting the slap-wrist “punishment” of having to spend an hour per week being bored in a church (or, if they’re already churchgoers, just going about their normal routine) and suffering effectively no penalty at all for the misdeed for which they have been convicted. Is the judge _supposed_ to be handing out meaningless punishments? Sounds like a waste of time and expense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/82 "2011-09-29T03:53:00Z")
Just spend the time in church creeping out the other church-goers, without doing anyting overt. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/83 "2011-09-29T04:19:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, I don’t care… the argument that it’s inherently unconstitutional has already been explored. I’m expressing a parallel concern that actual criminals are getting the slap-wrist “punishment” of having to spend an hour per week being bored in a church (or, if they’re already churchgoers, just going about their normal routine) and suffering effectively no penalty at all for the misdeed for which they have been convicted. Is the judge _supposed_ to be handing out meaningless punishments? Sounds like a waste of time and expense to me. Ok, so you must be opposed to probation too. They don’t even have to spend an hour a week being bored in church. So basically you get punished with imprisonment, or you get off scott free. And to keep the public happy, you make sure everyone does some time, even if they don’t deserve it. I can’t see how that could go wrong.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/84 "2011-09-29T06:01:08Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Just spend the time in church creeping out the other church-goers, without doing anyting overt. Not as much fun as you might think. Kinda gets to you, after a while. Not the way they look at you, but the way they don’t look at you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/85 "2011-09-29T09:33:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, so you must be opposed to probation too. No, so everything that follows from this assumption of yours lacks basis. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/86 "2011-09-29T13:28:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Because of the concept of unconditional conditions. > > The government cannot condition receipt of benefits (a non custodial sentence) on a breach of the First Amendment. You learn that early on in Con Law. > > Under your analysis, the government could offer double unemployment benefits to those who wear crucifixes, and only half benefits to those who would not eat a bacon sandwich. > > It’s just more choices! How can that be worse than fewer? Then why are all the “you must wear this outfit” stuff considered legal? And they always fall afoul of the unusual part of “cruel and unusual punishment.” In fact, that’s what makes me think this would be constitutional. If you can abridge someone’s free speech rights by making them wear clothing with a certain message on it, why can’t you also abridge their freedom of religion? Both methods seem use making the punishment a choice to make it constitutional. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, so everything that follows from this assumption of yours lacks basis. Cute. You know what the statement means. By your own logic, parole is not a punishment. If it is indeed a punishment, then explain how it is different. Why is one system that requires you to be at a certain place in a certain time good, while the other bad? And, remember, you’ve already given up on using the unconstitutionality defense, as you said that is irrelevant to your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/87 "2011-09-29T13:40:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If you can abridge someone’s free speech rights by making them wear clothing with a certain message on it, why can’t you also abridge their freedom of religion? In my opinion, if the speech does not have anything to do directly with their crime, then it should not be permitted. For instance there’s a stronger argument for being given the option of wearing a sandwich board saying “I’m a convicted bread thief” if that’s what you were convicted of, but not “I like the Teletubbies and my mama dresses me funny”. Giving the “option” of attending religious services has nothing to do with the crime or rehabilitation, and as a matter of fact I cannot think of any reason to give the option, let alone one which would trump the 1st Amendment. Whereas the sandwich board, you could argue, at least promoted repentence and advances information, although one has to of course weigh that against free speech as well. Although if the conviction were of, say, setting fire to a church, I’d consider the punishment morally just, not to mention hilarious, even though upon further consideration I would not want to enforce it due to setting a precedent. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/88 "2011-09-29T16:56:56Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’m actually a little skivvy on the jail or fine choice too. Doesn’t really seem fair that you can buy your way out of prison. > > (what I’d do is go rob a house before my trial. If they didn’t catch me, I could use the proceeds to pay my fine for the first crime. If they did catch me, I would go rob a bigger house to pay the fines for both crimes. If I was caught for this third crime, I’d go rob an even bigger house…etc. Eventually I presumably would get good enough at burglary to not get caught.) Martingale burglary? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/89 "2011-09-29T17:10:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > By your own logic, parole is not a punishment. Earlier [TriPolar] said “probation”. Please pick a mistaken assumption and stick with it. > [@](#): > > And, remember, you’ve already given up on using the unconstitutionality defense, as you said that is irrelevant to your argument. Other people are already arguing that issue. My additional voice would be redundant. It is not a matter of “giving up”. Anyway, I’m curious what this judge would do if sentencing someone who was already known to be a church-goer, or someone who was a church-goer but was not known (to the judge) to be so. Before offering the church option, does the judge intend to establish if the convicted is church-going (and if he is, deny the option, as it would be meaningless), or just assume that the conviction is _de facto_ proof of someone who is _not_ church-going. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/90 "2011-09-29T17:14:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’m actually a little skivvy on the jail or fine choice too. Doesn’t really seem fair that you can buy your way out of prison. > > (what I’d do is go rob a house before my trial. If they didn’t catch me, I could use the proceeds to pay my fine for the first crime. If they did catch me, I would go rob a bigger house to pay the fines for both crimes. If I was caught for this third crime, I’d go rob an even bigger house…etc. Eventually I presumably would get good enough at burglary to not get caught.) They don’t offer the “jail or fine” option to people who don’t return the proceeds of their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/91 "2011-09-29T17:41:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, duh. Why in the name of sanity would you give criminals the option of not being punished when they get caught committing crimes? Why do you think being sentenced to a year of attending church isn’t punishment? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/92 "2011-09-29T21:34:07Z")
Can Pastafarians offer to simply eat a plate of spaghetti instead? That’s the kind of punishment I can get behind! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/93 "2011-09-30T00:29:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Can Pastafarians offer to simply eat a plate of spaghetti instead? That’s the kind of punishment I can get behind! Well, church ladies ARE supposed to be the best cooks. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/94 "2011-10-01T19:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Why do you think being sentenced to a year of attending church isn’t punishment? Many people, voluntarily and without any coercion at all, go to church on their own, and even regard it as a beneficial experience. Requiring church attendance is certainly not a punishment for them. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/95 "2011-10-01T21:26:28Z")
Already saw this on WWGHA! Here’s my reply: In case no one knew the secret of life before, I’ll tell you: Stay out of jail! That’s it. If I were in the situation of this choice, you’d be calling Locrian the Anti-theist, FATHER LOCRIAN! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/96 "2011-10-02T15:48:41Z")
Can I choose to attend the Church of Satan? What if it was the other way around? What if the judge said you are _forbidden_ from going to church for a year? ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/97 "2011-10-02T16:15:16Z")
I think I’ve come up with a brilliant plan. In addition to this story, another has come out of Alabama about the crackdown on illegal immigrants and the negative effect it’s had on sweet potato farms. What say they offer cancellation of deportation to anyone (without a felony record of course!) willing to go to church for a year? Everyone wins! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/98 "2011-10-03T13:14:48Z")
Even better. If they catch illegal immigrants working at a sweet potato farm, they can punish them by making them work on a sweet potato farm. Makes about as much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889/99 "2011-10-03T14:30:01Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’m actually a little skivvy on the jail or fine choice too. Doesn’t really seem fair that you can buy your way out of prison. Don’t think of it as buying your way out of jail. Think of it as serving your way out of a fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jail-or-jesus/597889.md?page=4)