# Jake Lloyd speaks out against the Phantom Menace. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175 "2012-03-08T17:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/41 "2015-06-22T04:27:20Z")
Bumped. Jake Lloyd charged in South Carolina high-speed chase: [http://www.aol.com/article/2015/06/21/star-wars-star-arrested-after-s-carolina-high-speed-chase/21199146/](http://www.aol.com/article/2015/06/21/star-wars-star-arrested-after-s-carolina-high-speed-chase/21199146/) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/42 "2015-06-22T04:50:35Z")
The force was against him this time ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/43 "2015-06-22T05:20:05Z")
Now _that’s_ pod-racing. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/44 "2015-06-22T05:34:20Z")
I wonder if the arresting officer hollered "YIPPEEE! " 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/45 "2015-06-22T05:49:23Z")
Qui-Gon told him to stay in that cockpit, and that’s what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/46 "2015-06-22T06:09:26Z")
The breathalyzer detected elevated midi-chlorian levels. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/47 "2015-06-22T07:09:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Unfortunately, Release Order is also an instant failure, and the reason is a single shot. If you’re watching the original trilogy first, then after the Empire is destroyed and everyone is celebrating, Luke looks over at his mentors, Ben Kenobi and Yoda, and **suddenly they are joined by… some random creepy looking teenager who needs a haircut**. Placing Hayden Christensen in the ending of Jedi, since he’s not in ANY of the other films, turns an ending that should be celebratory into one that is confusing for the viewer. The fact that Christensen looks like he’s undressing someone with his eyes doesn’t help._ I haven’t seen _ **RotJ** _ since it first came out, so I remember only the original. They actually \*\*\*did \*\*\*this in the remastered version?!? :eek: How utterly stupid! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/48 "2015-06-22T07:14:28Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Either way, I don’t know if Lloyd was a bad actor or if it was George Lucas’s directing (because he can make a decent actor bad), but that was one of the most annoying performances by a child actor since _The Yearling_, to which add the “ewww” factor to Natalie Portman’s creepy “Oh, I’m never going to forget you Annie…” line (which makes no sense). Watch _Jingle All the Way_. The fact that Jake ever got another acting role after that one is a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/49 "2015-06-22T07:15:17Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I haven’t seen _ **RotJ** _ since it first came out, so I remember only the original. They actually \*\*\*did \*\*\*this in the remastered version?!? :eek: > > How utterly stupid! :smack: On the other hand, on the same token, who the hell is Sebastian Shaw (besides the guy who runs the Hellfire Club)? He’s hardly recognizable in the Vader makeup during the unmasking as the same person, so it’s not like it’s necessarily any less confusing. I mean, the implication is definitely there, but I don’t think it’s because the viewer actually visually recognizes who the guy is. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/50 "2015-06-22T07:23:04Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > On the other hand, on the same token, who the hell is Sebastian Shaw (besides the guy who runs the Hellfire Club)? He’s hardly recognizable in the Vader makeup during the unmasking as the same person, so it’s not like it’s necessarily any less confusing. I mean, the implication is definitely there, but I don’t think it’s because the viewer actually visually recognizes who the guy is. The implication is more than simply “there,” since we just watched a mangled fifty-something man die a slow and horrible death. Who the hell else _would_ appear in reincarnated form alongside Obi-Wan and Yoda? 😕 I had no difficulty whatsoever figuring out who that tall mature dude was in an earlier life. If they had shown a teenager, I’d’ve said “Huh? Who the fuck is _ **that** _?!?” ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/51 "2015-06-22T07:33:09Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > The implication is more than simply “there,” since we just watched a mangled fifty-something man die a slow and horrible death. Who the hell else _would_ appear in reincarnated form alongside Obi-Wan and Yoda? 😕 Exactly. So why couldn’t the same assumption be made for Christiansen? I mean, it’s not like this would be the first time such a thing was played with (the last time character X was “truly himself”). > [@](#): > > I had no difficulty whatsoever figuring out who that tall mature dude was in an earlier life. If they had shown a teenager, I’d’ve said “Huh? Who the fuck is _ **that** _?!?” Hayden Christiansen was 23 when he did Episode III. I mean, I know what you’re saying, but at the same time, I don’t think it was a completely senseless decision. It might be WRONG, but I think there’s strong logic to it. It probably it comes down to the assumption that Lucas obviously made that most people watching the movies for the first time by the time Episode III came out would not, under normal circumstances, watch Episode VI before episode III. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/52 "2015-06-22T07:33:11Z")
> [@Tamex](#): > > One of the Star Trek writers, D.C. Fontana, even had a panel at a convention called “Solving the Wesley Problem” which turned into a total Wesley bashfest where a 14-year-old Wil had to try to defend himself. Wil now asks why Fontana didn’t solve the Wesley problem by…writing a better character! He was included in the series because, in the words of Gene Roddenberry himself, “Wesley is me at 14.” Unfortunately, it was evident even to outsiders that the Great Bird of the Galaxy had already begun his mental and physical decline, and this was manifested in a number of horrible decisions he made with respect to the new show. Neither was he allowed to produce any of the movies after the first one. (Read Justman and Solow’s book sometime and you’ll understand what I’m talking about.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/53 "2015-06-22T07:39:27Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Exactly. So why couldn’t the same assumption be made for Christiansen? I mean, it’s not like this would be the first time such a thing was played with (the last time character X was “truly himself”). Because when the movie first came out we had no knowledge of Anakin/Darth as a teenager (the reviewer’s word, not mine), or even that those years played a role in the character’s development. _Now_ it might make _some_ sense, but it sure wouldn’t have back in 1983! (And I still think it’s unnecessary and downright silly!) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/54 "2015-06-22T07:44:48Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Because when the movie first came out we had no knowledge of Anakin/Darth as a teenager (the reviewer’s word, not mine), or even that those years played a role in the character’s development. > > _Now_ it might make _some_ sense, but it sure wouldn’t have back in 1983! (And I still think it’s unnecessary and downright silly!) Yeah, but that’s the thing I’m arguing against: it’s NOT 1983. It will never BE 1983. So why does what made sense back then, “when the movie first came out,” have ANY relevance now? It’s fine if you don’t want to take the prequel movies as canon, like the guy linked to earlier who deletes Episode I entirely, but it’s out there. It exists. Only sci-fi level tech will get rid of it, and it in fact may get even more entrenched in reality with the new trilogy. So we just have to deal. In fact, why can’t I argue that NOT changing Shaw makes no sense, because Christiansen obviously won’t look anything like him as an older man? Or that not enough time passed between Episode III and IV to advance him to someone Shaw’s age? At least with the pale scarred make-up in Episode VI, he could’ve been practically any age. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/55 "2015-06-22T07:53:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So why does what made sense back then, “when the movie first came out,” have ANY relevance now? Because we just saw him as a \*\*much older \*\*man dying a few minutes before. And you cannot \*assume \*that someone watching the movie for the first time today has even bothered to see prequels II and III. (After wasting money on _ **Phantom Menace** _, I certainly didn’t!) He therefore is much less relevant to _ **Jedi** _ than Sebastian Shaw was (IMHO, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/56 "2015-06-22T08:13:34Z")
First of all, as I said, I’ve seen the old “his ghost is younger because that was the last time he was truly himself, or truly alive” thing in other stories before, so it’s not unprecedented. Secondly, even if you’re right, I frankly don’t feel like I can get too worked up about it. Star Wars is such an ingrained part of Western culture that I honestly don’t think there are very many people out there who will go into it totally blind. I think, more often than not, they are introduced to it by an enthusiast, or at least read about it online before they watch it (and get themselves spoiled, but that’s another thing entirely). This thing you’re fearing where a complete virgin watches the original trilogy first AND doesn’t get the connection AND cares about it don’t strike me as being all that common, or that big a deal if it even happens, considering it’s, like, the LAST scene of the movie. I think a lot of people who care (not necessarily you) don’t REALLY care all that much about those virgins, but about their movie being changed out from under them — same as Greedo or the E.T. walkie talkies. And that’s totally legit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/57 "2015-06-22T18:19:38Z")
Virtues of hindsight, and all that, but I don’t see how Hayden Christensen showing up at the end of Jedi would be confusing to a new viewer. There were five people in the series up to that point who could use the Force: Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor. Luke, Obi-Wan, and Yoda are all recognizable. I don’t think it takes an incredible leap of imagination to figure out who the third ghost is. And plot-wise it makes more sense for him to be a younger version of himself, rather than a physically intact, but older version: that person never existed. He was never a slightly sedentary-looking middle aged man with short gray hair. He went from young Hayden Christensen to a charred torso in a mobile iron lung. How did the Force, or his subconscious, or whatever it is that dictates what a Force ghost looks like, settle on that image for him? ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175/58 "2015-06-22T23:14:52Z")
I distinctly remember Obi Wan shooting Yoda a glance as if to say, “Really? Alec Guinness? Why can’t I be Ewan McGregor? Or at least a younger Guinness from the Ealing Studios days!” Yoda shot back a look that said, “Look at me do not. Resembled Kermit’s Grandad always I have. Except when 200 I was. A goatee I grew and wore a Triilby I did.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jake-lloyd-speaks-out-against-the-phantom-menace/615175.md?page=2)