# James Dobson, why don't YOU bend over and get some "correction"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065 "2005-01-10T16:57:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/1 "2005-01-10T16:57:27Z")
[For those parents who want to spank their children, but don’t want to lay a hand on them either](http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/10/campaigner_targets_spanking_tools_sale/) > [@](#): > > On a spring day, Susan Lawrence was flipping through a magazine, Home School Digest, when she came across an advertisement that took her breath away. In it, ''The Rod," a $5 flexible whipping stick, was described as the ''ideal tool for child training." > > ''Spoons are for cooking, belts are for holding up pants, hands are for loving, and rods are for chastening," read the advertisement she saw nearly two years ago for the 22-inch nylon rod. It also cited a biblical passage, which instructs parents not to spare the ''rod of correction." Perhaps our Bible scholars can put that into context. > [@](#): > > Lawrence appealed in the fall of 2003 to the US \*\*Consumer Product Safety Commission \*\* to ban the sale of The Rod. But last month, the commission said it had found **''no basis for determining that the product constitutes a substantial product hazard.**" Your government at work? > [@](#): > > But Bullock, a Southern Baptist, said he stands by the virtue of The Rod, which, he said, is safer than a belt or paddle. He said he believes his product is in keeping with biblical teachings that rods be used only as a ''last resort" to train children. He opposes its use on babies. He said he sold the device at a rate of ''a few a week" over the last six years or so. Many of his customers returned for more rods, and cited the Scriptures when they made their purchases, he said. They needed more? What, did they wear out the ones they got before? Oh, yes, I mentioned Dobson in the title, because he’s the most prominent proponent of not sparing The Rod: > [@](#): > > James Dobson, founder of the group Focus on the Family, one of the nation’s prominent Christian evangelical organizations, has written about the proper use of spanking for children who willfully disobey parents, sanctioning the use of a ''neutral" object such as a paddle in order for the hand to be reserved as ''an object of love." > > When used ''lovingly and properly," Dobson wrote on his website, corporal punishment is an effective tool to instill discipline and does not bring about lasting emotional damage to a child. ''God created this mechanism as a valuable vehicle for instruction," he wrote. And that’s what made me write this. There’s room to debate the value of spanking as a means to stop misbehavior, sure - but there is no fucking way that God supports child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/2 "2005-01-10T17:01:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Lawrence appealed in the fall of 2003 to the US Consumer Product Safety Commission to ban the sale of The Rod. But last month, the commission said it had found ''no basis for determining that the product constitutes a substantial product hazard." A device designed specifically to inflict punishlent does not constitute a substantial hazard? Don’t let these folks review any SNL gag toys… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/3 "2005-01-10T17:16:52Z")
The Rod doesn’t abuse children. Parents do. [/NRA talking points OFF] ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/4 "2005-01-10T17:17:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s room to debate the value of spanking as a means to stop misbehavior, sure - but there is no fucking way that God supports child abuse. Yes, God does support child abuse. The Bible says, “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.” (Prov. 13: 24) " Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." (Prov. 19:19) "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. (Prov. 29:19) ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/5 "2005-01-10T18:35:37Z")
I’d read an assertation on the SDMB recently that the whole “spare the rod” bit was intended to mean more like a shepherd’s crook - meaning that one should guide their child and occasionally yank them back from peril, not beat the hell out of them. To my interpretation, to “chasten” means more like a lecture than “scream at the child and tell them they’re worthless so as to beat their spirit into submission,” and as for the “let not thy soul spare for his crying” part, I’d read it as to not give in if your child pulls the “you’re making me sad!” bit with crocodile tears when you’re telling them what they did wrong and why you’re not pleased. But maybe I’m just giving the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/6 "2005-01-10T18:36:41Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > I’d read an assertation on the SDMB recently that the whole “spare the rod” bit was intended to mean more like a shepherd’s crook - meaning that one should guide their child and occasionally yank them back from peril, not beat the hell out of them. :smack: What I neglected to add was my question about whether there was any merit in this translation. ---
**Author:** ![Tentacle\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tentacle\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tentacle_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/7 "2005-01-10T18:47:05Z")
Five bucks? That’s a bargain, considering some of the exorbitant prices I’ve seen for other implements of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/8 "2005-01-10T19:02:12Z")
> [@Tentacle Monster](#): > > Five bucks? That’s a bargain, considering some of the exorbitant prices I’ve seen for other implements of punishment. ::wondering what TM needs with implements of punishment, decides not to ask.:: ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/9 "2005-01-10T19:13:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder] I’d read an assertation on the SDMB recently that the whole “spare the rod” bit was intended to mean more like a shepherd’s crook - meaning that one should guide their child and occasionally yank them back from peril, not beat the hell out of them. [QUOTE] This is highly unlikely. Proverbs 13:24 gives us “spare the rod, spoil the child.” In the _Biblia Sacra Vulgata_, Jerome gives us _virga_, for rod. While this has several meanings, including a magic wand, a crutch, a limetwig, and a graft, its best attribution is as a rod or switch for flogging. It is even found in poetry as an alternative for the _fasces_, the rod-bound axe used to scourge criminals. While some might argue that using classical attributions is not appropriate given that the Vulgate is a much later document, I would argue that Jerome is an overt classicizer and it is impossible to believe that he would have been ignorant of the powerful connotation of a word like _virga_. I cannot go back to the Hebrew, but I would further argue that what the Hebrew says is largely irrelevant, since the tradition that we have received was predominantly passed down through the Latin and its later vernacular translations. We can check what the _Vetus Latina_ has to say if anyone has a copy lying around… ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/10 "2005-01-10T19:20:33Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Yes, God does support child abuse. The Bible says, “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.” (Prov. 13: 24) > > " Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." > (Prov. 19:19) > > "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. (Prov. 29:19) Well, those are indeed verses on chastening a child. However, those aren’t verses on child abuse. I certainly think it is important to chasten a child for his or her own good. I believe that lovingly chastening a child, when done correctly, can prevent larger problems in the future. God does not support child abuse. And by the way, **gobear** : Seeing as you have admitted to not believing in God, what gives you any authority on explaining what God supports or does not support? Isn’t this kind of like me jumping into a debate on alien lifeforms (which I don’t beleive in) and offering up my views on what alien life forms are like, how they live, and what they do or don’t support? Back to the OP: Those who are quoting the Bible in defense of a rod of correction are probably quoting Proverbs 22:15 “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.” As for putting that into context, Proverbs doesn’t have much context to work with, per se. It is by and large a collection of adages and other good advice, like the name implies. Christians are chastened by God as seen in Hebrews 12:6-7 “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?” That is to say, God acts as a loving parent to a Christian. When the Christian goes astray or falls short due to involvement in some sin, God is not going to just sit back and do nothing about it. He loves the Christian too much to do that, so the Christian is chastened. In parallel, we chasten our children (timeouts, spankings, what have you) when they misbehave. We don’t chasten them because we hate them or want to hurt them. Rather, we do it because we love them. Those who spank their child with a hand or an object with the intention to correct them are (in my opinion) doing the correct thing. Those who hit their children with the intention of hurting them, or otherwise take spanking too far are (in my opinion) doing an extremely bad, evil thing. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/11 "2005-01-10T19:29:52Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > And by the way, **gobear** : Seeing as you have admitted to not believing in God, what gives you any authority on explaining what God supports or does not support? Isn’t this kind of like me jumping into a debate on alien lifeforms (which I don’t beleive in) and offering up my views on what alien life forms are like, how they live, and what they do or don’t support? I reckon it’s 'cause it can read and give an interpretation as well as anyone else who is literate. It’s not like faith makes you understand words any better. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/12 "2005-01-10T19:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > And by the way, gobear: Seeing as you have admitted to not believing in God, what gives you any authority on explaining what God supports or does not support? Isn’t this kind of like me jumping into a debate on alien lifeforms (which I don’t beleive in) and offering up my views on what alien life forms are like, how they live, and what they do or don’t support? Because I’m capable of reading the Bible for myself (tip of the hat to the Protestant Reformation) and seeing what it says on the topic. If you don’t like hearing that your holy book condones brutality to children, take it up with the authors, not with me. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/13 "2005-01-10T19:39:46Z")
When I was a boy, my parents used their hands when I needed a spanking. I say, if you’re going to beat your kids, use the tools that God gave you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/14 "2005-01-10T19:44:00Z")
> [@Tentacle Monster](#): > > Five bucks? That’s a bargain. And that’s _with_ the “cushioned grips” that keep your hand from getting sore too soon. “This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you”, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/15 "2005-01-10T19:47:56Z")
**Psycho Pirate** , if **gobear** was interested in a polite dialogue on how Christians view corporal punishment, I don’t think he would have made a categorical statement about what God believes (even though he he doesn’t believe in God) and then backed it up with scripture when he knows full well that lots of people who believe in God don’t view scripture the way he portrayed and used it. Sometimes it’s best to just save your breath… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/16 "2005-01-10T19:52:01Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > **Psycho Pirate** , if **gobear** was interested in a polite dialogue on how Christians view corporal punishment, I don’t think he would have made a categorical statement about what God believes (even though he he doesn’t believe in God) and then backed it up with scripture when he knows full well that lots of people who believe in God don’t view scripture the way he portrayed and used it. Sometimes it’s best to just save your breath… Well, sure, if you’re a cafeteria Christian, it’s easy to blind yourself to the unpleasant bits in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/17 "2005-01-10T20:10:48Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > **Psycho Pirate** , if **gobear** was interested in a polite dialogue on how Christians view corporal punishment, I don’t think he would have made a categorical statement about what God believes (even though he he doesn’t believe in God) and then backed it up with scripture when he knows full well that lots of people who believe in God don’t view scripture the way he portrayed and used it. Sometimes it’s best to just save your breath… Do you think it’s possible that **gobear** might have been offering up a few Bible verses usually cited by those who do hold to that particular belief? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/18 "2005-01-10T20:21:56Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > I certainly think it is important to chasten a child for his or her own good. I believe that lovingly chastening a child, when done correctly, can prevent larger problems in the future. God does not support child abuse. > In parallel, we chasten our children (timeouts, spankings, what have you) when they misbehave. We don’t chasten them because we hate them or want to hurt them. Rather, we do it because we love them. > > Those who spank their child with a hand or an object with the intention to correct them are (in my opinion) doing the correct thing. Those who hit their children with the intention of hurting them, or otherwise take spanking too far are (in my opinion) doing an extremely bad, evil thing. What? So motive matters? Utter and complete nonsense. I’ve been spanked for my own good(as a child), and spanked out of anger–guess what? They both hurt and neither one of them does a damn bit of good. All it does is make the spankee resentful and angry at the spanker–not the lesson one wants to teach(or is it?). I can safely say that I learned nothing from the spankings, mouth being washed out stuff that I was parented with. Might makes right, eh? Bullshit. “this hurts me more than it hurts you” is absolute bullshit–and sanctimonious claptrap to boot. Is it a sop to your conscience to tell yourself this stuff? Ask your kids if they think that spanking helps them–oh, wait. Don’t bother–you have already established an environment of fear–you will not get the truth. How nice that you are teaching them to hurt your grandkids. IMO, a rod with a cushioned grip is waaaaay over the top. It is premeditated, cold blooded and calculated. These kind of parents like the power they have over their kids–and IMO, want their kids to be just that much afraid of them. An ego stroke? Power trip? Delusions of god? who knows. Sick and I’ll say un-Christian, too. Love does not mean hurting, scaring, intimidating those smaller and more ignorant than you. Love is guiding, teaching, patience and fortitude–it is not a smack across the chops b/c Junior said something sassy. Corporal punishment is lazy(on the part of the punisher) and ineffective and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/19 "2005-01-10T20:24:57Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > Do you think it’s possible that **gobear** might have been offering up a few Bible verses usually cited by those who do hold to that particular belief? That’s clearly what he was doing. However, given his “God supports child abuse” position and his previous statements on religion, I don’t think he was offering those verses in an attempt to actually have a polite discussion of them. His use of a perjorative phrase to describe people who don’t accept the entire bible seems to back this up: He’s said that he thinks fundamentalists (who would accept his use of those verses) are morons, and now he’s insulting those who _don’t_ accept it all. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065/20 "2005-01-10T20:26:40Z")
**Metacom** can’t read or think rationally. Poster A posts outrageous statement from crazy fringe guy. Poster B says the Bible doesn’t sanction crazy fringe guy’s statement. I pipe in to show the Bible has verses that crazy fringe guy and his pals use to back up their crazy fringe statements. **Metacom** interprets that to be blanket attack on all Christians amnd thinks I said that all Christians share crazy fringe guy’s wacky beliefs. They don’t, of course, but I’m not going to defend myself. I’ll just go along with **Metacom** wild tangent. **Metacom** needs to see me as an absolutist so he can dismiss the bits of the Bible that seem to sanction unpleasant ideas. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-dobson-why-dont-you-bend-over-and-get-some-correction/284065.md?page=2)