# James O'Keefe vs. CNN **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552 "2017-02-23T14:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/81 "2017-02-26T18:20:38Z")
Liking the poor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/82 "2017-02-26T19:06:03Z")
It was working, that was their crime. Small ball politics, like small ball poker, not splashy, not even very interesting. Register a few thousand here, another few thousand over there, nobody really paid much attention. Until the Republican brought out their sophisticated gerrymander plan, carefully drawing districts so that R would win, but just barely, in more places than they lost, thus leveraging a non-majority into a safe majority. Then, all of a sudden, those few thousand here and there was a problem, so ACORN had to go. ACORN was murdered. Because it scared them. Because Saul Alinsky was right, and the snotty leadership who thought him old-fashioned and out of touch didn’t listen. Because the R plan depended on carefully manufactured voting districts, and ACORN was the tiny little monkey wrench in the carefully crafted “well-oiled machine”. So they killed it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/83 "2017-02-26T19:12:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I get the impression you know very little about entrapment as a legal concept, is that correct? I get the impression he knows very little, FULL STOP. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/84 "2017-02-27T02:09:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Oftentimes things are not that simple. Other than to the simple-minded. 🙂 And some things ARE that simple. No matter what amount of bullshit you try to to shovel over it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/85 "2017-02-27T14:07:40Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > You have said that he was on to something. Can you explicitly spell out the thing that he was on to? I’m not sure what exactly you think ACORN is guilty of. The CA AG’s office reviewed the unedited tapes. [Here’s what they think it established](http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888_acorn_report.pdf): > [@](#): > > The recordings establish ACORN employees across the country were willing to discuss with O’Keefe and Giles their plan to conduct a prostitution business, and a few even made suggestions for disguising profits and avoiding detection by law enforcement agencies. They go on to say they found these discussions “highly inappropriate” though not illegal. The law firm that ACORN hired to review the issue [came to similar conclusions:](http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf) > [@](#): > > This hidden camera controversy is an apt example. While some of the advice and counsel given by ACORN employees and volunteers was clearly inappropriate and unprofessional, we did not find a pattern of intentional, illegal conduct by ACORN staff; in fact, there is no evidence that action, illegal or otherwise, was taken by any ACORN employee on behalf of the videographers. Instead, the videos represent the byproduct of ACORN’s longstanding management weaknesses, including a lack of training, a lack of procedures, and a lack of on-site supervision. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/86 "2017-02-27T19:10:18Z")
So some ACORN employees said some inappropriate and unprofessional things but they took no actions illegal or otherwise. If that’s your position, I’m in agreement with you. However, I think that with any large organization you could find a handful of employees to say some inappropriate and unprofessional things. I don’t think ACORN was especially bad in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/87 "2017-02-27T19:24:51Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > However, I think that with any large organization you could find a handful of employees to say some inappropriate and unprofessional things. I don’t think ACORN was especially bad in this regard. Maybe, maybe not. See again the quote (in my prior post) from the ACORN-hired law firm which reviewed the issue and seemed to conclude otherwise in saying “_the videos represent the byproduct of ACORN’s longstanding management weaknesses, including a lack of training, a lack of procedures, and a lack of on-site supervision_”. They also said (in the paragraph preceding the one I quoted) that > [@Proskauer](#): > > The serious management challenges detailed in our report are the fault of ACORN’s founder and a cadre of leaders who, in their drive for growth, failed to commit the organization to the basic, appropriate standards of governance and accountability. As a result, ACORN not only fell short of living its principles but also left itself vulnerable to public embarrassment. But that’s not what’s most on point here. What’s most on point is that O’Keefe was onto something, and while he depicted things as being worse than they were, it’s not like the whole thing was concocted out of the whole cloth (as many partisans here have tried to claim). What’s relevant is when O’Keefe releases something new. Can it be assumed that it’s 100% bogus based solely on the fact that “it’s just O’Keefe”, or is it worth looking at it carefully - certainly more carefully than an expose put out by a reputable media organization - but nonetheless allowing for the possibility that it just might contain something? Others in this thread have maintained the first position. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/88 "2017-02-27T19:27:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The CA AG’s office reviewed the unedited tapes. [Here’s what they think it established](http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888_acorn_report.pdf):They go on to say they found these discussions “highly inappropriate” though not illegal. > > The law firm that ACORN hired to review the issue [came to similar conclusions:](http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf) The AG also concluded: > [@](#): > > The edited O’Keefe videos released on the [BigGovernment.com](http://BigGovernment.com) website portrayed ACORN as an organization infested with employees committing crimes. However, the impression of rampant illegal conduct created by the recordings at the various ACORN offices around the country is not supported by the evidence related to the videos in California. > > Our investigation revealed facts which were not reflected in the recordings. The San Diego employee’s answers were influenced by his limited English and intent to contact the police. The San Bernardino ACORN receptionist knew it to be a prank and made outrageous and false statements. Again, if you want to hang to the past and incomplete timeline, it is not my problem that you look also as the gullible people that continue to swallow what O’Keefe is spewing. He was not really onto something, he was making something as the evidence later showed. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/89 "2017-02-27T19:42:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What’s most on point is that O’Keefe was onto something, and while he depicted things as being worse than they were, it’s not like the whole thing was concocted out of the whole cloth (as many partisans here have tried to claim). But the thing he was onto was that some employees of ACORN could be tricked into saying stupid things. The narrative that ACORN was a criminal organization was concocted out of whole cloth. He tricked some people into saying some unprofessional things and tried to spin that into the entire organization being corrupt. He can be dismissed out of hand because what he presented had only a passing resemblance to the actual truth. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/90 "2017-02-27T19:54:00Z")
What he tried to spin it into is irrelevant. Bottom line is that his videos did uncover things, both about the specific people in them and about the organization generally, that were not known prior to them being released. Trying to deflect attention from that by pointing out that he overreached is not rational. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/91 "2017-02-27T19:56:18Z")
“Overreached”… the new “lied.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/92 "2017-02-27T19:58:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What he tried to spin it into is irrelevant. Bottom line is that his videos did uncover things, both about the specific people in them and about the organization generally, that were not known prior to them being released. > > Trying to deflect attention from that by pointing out that he overreached is not rational. What would you consider lying about what you are doing then lying about what the results are to be? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/93 "2017-02-27T20:13:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What he tried to spin it into is irrelevant. Bottom line is that his videos did uncover things, both about the specific people in them and about the organization generally, that were not known prior to them being released. Unknown things, but fake. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Trying to deflect attention from that by pointing out that he overreached is not rational. Nope, what is insane is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results\*. As it was shown already with what O’Keefe tried to do with that Female CNN reporter, giving O’Keefe so many chances to feed you and the right with bullshit and continuing to eat it is IMHO a definition of insanity. \*attributed to Einstein, but he never did say it, the line comes from addiction treatment groups from the 80’s. One can think that the right is just addicted to misleaders like O’Keefe. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/94 "2017-02-27T20:29:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What he tried to spin it into is irrelevant. Bottom line is that his videos did uncover things, both about the specific people in them and about the organization generally, that were not known prior to them being released. > > Trying to deflect attention from that by pointing out that he overreached is not rational. Yes, ACORN had management weaknesses. However, many organizations have management weaknesses. There is no reason to believe ACORN was especially bad in this area or even atypical. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/95 "2017-02-27T20:33:49Z")
If the same approach was tried at the next Republican National Convention, I wonder what the results might yield? ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/96 "2017-02-28T03:24:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What he tried to spin it into is irrelevant. Bottom line is that his videos did uncover things, both about the specific people in them and about the organization generally, that were not known prior to them being released. > > Trying to deflect attention from that by pointing out that he overreached is not rational. Good lord. If you keep fucking that chicken any more the poor thing’s gonna burst into flames. Your puzzling, vague defence of a contemptible little troll amounts to _“But look over here at exhibit A!”_ \< Points to a pile of bullshit labled Exhibit A. \> _Must you?_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/97 "2017-02-28T04:07:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What he tried to spin it into is irrelevant. Bottom line is that his videos did uncover things, both about the specific people in them and about the organization generally, that were not known prior to them being released. If you didn’t know beforehand that some people are so conflict averse that they’ll say anything if they think it’ll end an uncomfortable situation, well, now you know. If you didn’t know beforehand that some of those people worked for ACORN, well, now you know. Nothing else was uncovered. Now, if he’d shown that **actual** criminals were relying on ACORN for advice, or that **actual crimes** had been committed with ACORN’s help, that’d be the kind of thing that a real expose does. But we’ve been over this. You’re determined to believe that showing some people are a combination of foolish, gullible, and conflict averse is an important revelation, and that this is the kind of thing that actual documentarians do. I don’t see any room on your part to educate yourself, so keep on fuckin that chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/98 "2017-02-28T14:28:21Z")
I guess I haven’t drunk enough left-wing Kool-Aid. Maybe one day … ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/99 "2017-02-28T14:40:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I guess I haven’t drunk enough left-wing Kool-Aid. Maybe one day … An enforced error by the right wing sources of information, the truth potions have been branded an anathema to the conservatives by their own right wing sources of information. Nice racket. If you only would reflect a little you would see that being aware of what is more accurate is not supposed to be just accessed by liberals, progressives or independents. As the AG said, the “investigation revealed facts which were not reflected in the recordings”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552/100 "2017-02-28T14:53:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I guess I haven’t drunk enough left-wing Kool-Aid. Maybe one day … Perhaps because you’re too full of something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-okeefe-vs-cnn/780552.md?page=6)