# James Otto Sweet Heart and Damning Suicides to Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764 "2013-02-19T03:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/841 "2013-02-26T01:10:50Z")
Way late to the party…but to play Advocatus Dei for a second on the initial point of pitting I can very much understand where the pitee is coming from. If one believes that suicides are tormented forever and informs others of this, the expected result is fewer suicides due to wishing to avoid torment - the net result being a positive for humanity. Fewer deaths, fewer grieving family members, fewer people being tormented forever etc. Doesn’t mean it’s true to the rest of us, but if you truly believe it then pointing out the fact is a logical and decent thing to do. Incidentally, I’ve heard that the initial Christian prohibition on suicides came early on - missionaries telling the barbarian tribes of Europe how great heaven was. Naturally, why would you want to live on Earth much longer? Simply kill yourself and off you go. However this wasn’t exactly a plus point for the spread of Christianity so suicide gained more of a taboo status within the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/842 "2013-02-26T03:34:48Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah, I have no idea where the hell I was going with that train of thought. I read it now and it makes no sense to me. There is a point in what you were saying but I think it got lost. If there is evidence of a deity’s activity, a theist who believes that deity moves in mysterious ways can’t refuse to accept the evidence merely because the theist can’t understand why the deity would engage in that activity. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/843 "2013-02-26T03:52:06Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > If one believes that suicides are tormented forever and informs others of this, the expected result is fewer suicides due to wishing to avoid torment - the net result being a positive for humanity. Fewer deaths, fewer grieving family members, fewer people being tormented forever etc. Doesn’t mean it’s true to the rest of us, but if you truly believe it then pointing out the fact is a logical and decent thing to do. Such a result could be “expected” only by proselytizers who are arrogant enough to consider themselves persuasive and engaging spokespersons for their own beliefs. A genuinely humble and sympathetic believer would be more likely to think that they might turn people off by thrusting their personal beliefs at them, and would be more inclined to act out their good wishes through empathy and kindness, instead of self-importantly assuming the role of spiritual warning system. Yes, there are a shit ton of people out there who apparently hear in their heads “I am a heroic and righteous rescuer of souls” while the message they’re actually broadcasting is “I am an insensitive egotist asshole whose smug self-satisfaction gives a bad name to everything I believe in”. No, those people’s arrogant tub-thumping does not count as being “logical and decent”. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/844 "2013-02-26T04:01:48Z")
Kimtsu: An excellent pt in my humble opinion however I would like to call attention to the fact that unless a suicide was really only intended to be an attempt and therefore a cry for help, death is a faustian bargain with no downside for the vast majority of clinically depressed people. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/845 "2013-02-26T04:36:25Z")
Ya know, I didn’t want to bring up something I’d long since abandoned, but curiosity got the better of me when I kept seeing this and the other thread pop up in new posts… how come James’ erstwhile stalker isn’t all over his Facebook page like she is everywhere else? Is it possible he has her blocked or something else more complicated? Like maybe hiding her posts or something? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/846 "2013-02-26T04:48:11Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > I would like to call attention to the fact that unless a suicide was really only intended to be an attempt and therefore a cry for help, death is a faustian bargain with no downside for the vast majority of clinically depressed people. That is sadly all too true. An immediate family member of mine signed up for that bargain recently, and believe me I would have considered advocating _any_ line of reasoning if it would have been effective in changing his mind about it in the short term. However, that doesn’t justify blatting out faith-based talking points about suicides and their alleged afterlife to a bunch of random strangers on a messageboard who are lamenting the fate of a suicidal individual whose mind is no longer capable of being changed on the subject. If those arrogant tub-thumpers would exchange their self-righteous preaching for getting out there and actually helping the miserable to bear their misery, I’d have more respect for their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/847 "2013-02-26T04:53:58Z")
Kimstu: I’m truly sorry to hear that. At least you realize it was beyond your control and don’t blame yourself, so maybe it will be easier to heal. I wish you well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/848 "2013-02-26T05:11:23Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Kimstu: I’m truly sorry to hear that. At least you realize it was beyond your control and don’t blame yourself, so maybe it will be easier to heal. I wish you well. Thank you, **deltasigma**. Don’t worry, it’s just the sixth of the five classic stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance followed by caustic grumpiness. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/849 "2013-02-26T12:15:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Such a result could be “expected” only by proselytizers who are arrogant enough to consider themselves persuasive and engaging spokespersons for their own beliefs. > > A genuinely humble and sympathetic believer would be more likely to think that they might turn people off by thrusting their personal beliefs at them, and would be more inclined to act out their good wishes through empathy and kindness, instead of self-importantly assuming the role of spiritual warning system. > > Yes, there are a shit ton of people out there who apparently hear in their heads “I am a heroic and righteous rescuer of souls” while the message they’re actually broadcasting is “I am an insensitive egotist asshole whose smug self-satisfaction gives a bad name to everything I believe in”. No, those people’s arrogant tub-thumping does not count as being “logical and decent”. Self-delusion is core to the mindset. The very initial premise is of an omniscient deity who cares about the method of death and has a special place to torment you, no part of which has any tangible evidence to support it. Once you get over that hurdle convincing yourself that you can be an eloquent and persuasive champion of the cause is child’s play. The internal logic and morality that spurs the action (I believe suicides are tormented, therefore I must point this out to prevent further occurrences) is still consistent even if the premise is fatally flawed as is the execution. ETA: Sorry for your loss…in that light I can well understand how this clumsy prosthelytizing is hard to take on any level. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/850 "2013-02-26T13:47:34Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > There is a point in what you were saying but I think it got lost. If there is evidence of a deity’s activity, a theist who believes that deity moves in mysterious ways can’t refuse to accept the evidence merely because the theist can’t understand why the deity would engage in that activity. Yes. But the idea is so nebulous for me that even reading your post, I can only grasp it every other time I read it. I was having a very similar discussion with a Christian and he said, “When we try to understand God, it’s like dogs trying to understand man.” And I wondered how he could tell me ANYTHING about god, then? How can you be Christian or Jewish or Muslim if your understanding of god is like a dog to men. Dogs understand nearly nothing about men! (not to upset dog lovers…I’m talking true knowledge of a man and his business). But I couldn’t really articulate my thoughts on the matter well, so I wasn’t able to have that conversation with the Christian. I often find myself in conversations on the topic that I’m ill equipped to hold up. I find the entire topic troubling, starting with the very definition of ‘god’. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/851 "2013-02-26T14:10:32Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > And I wondered how he could tell me ANYTHING about god, then? How can you be Christian or Jewish or Muslim if your understanding of god is like a dog to men. Dogs understand nearly nothing about men! (not to upset dog lovers…I’m talking true knowledge of a man and his business). Speaking of dogs, where’s my goddamn puppy? :mad: Has **bienville** run off with it? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/852 "2013-02-26T14:12:50Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Speaking of dogs, where’s my goddamn puppy? :mad: Has **bienville** run off with it? [Get out your diabetes meds.](http://www.cuteheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/puppy.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/853 "2013-02-26T15:45:41Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > [Get out your diabetes meds.](http://www.cuteheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/puppy.jpg) SOOOO CUTE! squee!:eek: :dies: ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/854 "2013-02-26T15:49:15Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Ya know, I didn’t want to bring up something I’d long since abandoned, but curiosity got the better of me when I kept seeing this and the other thread pop up in new posts… how come James’ erstwhile stalker isn’t all over his Facebook page like she is everywhere else? Is it possible he has her blocked or something else more complicated? Like maybe hiding her posts or something? Just wondering. This is most certainly the case, and is probably what she’s referring to when she talks about being banned from “his website.” A lot of people refer to celeb’s FB pages as their “website.” ---
**Author:** ![James\_Otto\_Sweet\_Heart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@James\_Otto\_Sweet\_Heart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James_Otto_Sweet_Heart)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/855 "2013-02-26T17:00:20Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Ya know, I didn’t want to bring up something I’d long since abandoned, but curiosity got the better of me when I kept seeing this and the other thread pop up in new posts… how come James’ erstwhile stalker isn’t all over his Facebook page like she is everywhere else? Is it possible he has her blocked or something else more complicated? Like maybe hiding her posts or something? Just wondering. Even though I can leave messages on his Face Book and My Space pages, I don’t because Twitter is where most of his time is spent. 🙂 🙂 🙂 God bless you and James always!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 Holly ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/856 "2013-02-26T17:05:54Z")
May Jesus assume the image of James Otto multiple times and engage in homo-erotic intercourse for your viewing pleasure - each and every possible all ways. ---
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/857 "2013-02-27T05:29:02Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > [Get out your diabetes meds.](http://www.cuteheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/puppy.jpg) Wait, wait. That’s a real dog? Not a stuffed animal? It’s even more unreal looking than this dog. [http://cuteoverload.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/7253950672\_a200647ba2\_b.jpg](http://cuteoverload.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/7253950672_a200647ba2_b.jpg) I’m impressed. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/858 "2013-02-27T05:46:54Z")
> [@Achren](#): > > Wait, wait. That’s a real dog? Not a stuffed animal? It’s even more unreal looking than this dog. [http://cuteoverload.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/7253950672\_a200647ba2\_b.jpg](http://cuteoverload.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/7253950672_a200647ba2_b.jpg) > > I’m impressed. **Nzinga’s** link was a Pomeranian, yours appears to be one of those doodle mixes. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/859 "2013-03-08T16:24:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > **Nzinga’s** link was a Pomeranian, yours appears to be one of those doodle mixes. No, you’re a doodle. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764/860 "2013-03-08T18:08:23Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > 5/ And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. > > 6/ But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. > > 7/ And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. > > Matthew 6: 5-7 I think that other quote is more appropriate… The one about the grave. Whitewashed and beuatiful on the outside, full of corruption and filth within. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-otto-sweet-heart-and-damning-suicides-to-hell/650764.md?page=44)