# James Ramseur, one of Bernard Goetz's shooting victims, is dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183 "2011-12-23T14:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/21 "2011-12-24T23:58:52Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’m on absolutely nothing, but I still fucked up my OP.Ramseur mugged Goetz 27 years ago. And you got this wrong too: I expect Ramseur and his friends in all likelihood would have mugged Goetz if he hadn’t given them any money, but he shot them before they had the opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/22 "2011-12-24T23:59:09Z")
“Ramseur later served 25 years for raping a pegnant woman with a gun.” He used a gun to intimidate her while he raped her or he actually raped her with a gun? Or he raped a pregnant woman who had a gun? Anyway…yeah, I sided with Goetz at the time. I’m not saying it’s right to take the law into your own hands but…_I understand_. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/23 "2011-12-25T00:02:07Z")
Without taking a stance one way or the other, I must say I’m amazed that there is nobody in this thread criticizing Goetz. I would have thought that on this board, there would be a significant number of people condemning what he did. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/24 "2011-12-25T00:47:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What happened to the other wonderful folks that Goetz shot? It’s in the wiki article. Two went on to be criminals, and a third became a junkie with various petty crime arrests. The paralyzed brain damaged one is the only one who managed to stay out of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/25 "2011-12-25T03:16:51Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > The paralyzed brain damaged one is the only one who managed to stay out of trouble. That guy was lucky. What? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/26 "2011-12-25T03:30:32Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Without taking a stance one way or the other, I must say I’m amazed that there is nobody in this thread criticizing Goetz.. What’s the point? Given that the thread started out being happy that one of the people Goetz shot has died 20-odd years later, and given that Goetz served time in jail for the shootings, what’s the point? I’ve made it clear in previous threads that I do not believe that gloating over a human being’s death is appropriate. You may take it for given that I still believe so. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/27 "2011-12-25T04:43:06Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Without taking a stance one way or the other, I must say I’m amazed that there is nobody in this thread criticizing Goetz. I would have thought that on this board, there would be a significant number of people condemning what he did. It isn’t a thread about Goetz. But since you insist, he was the same kind of scum as his victims. Look at the result of his vigilante campaign, as much or more crime as if he had never set out to deal with his inadequacies in that way. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/28 "2011-12-25T05:26:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It isn’t a thread about Goetz. But since you insist, he was the same kind of scum as his victims. Look at the result of his vigilante campaign, as much or more crime as if he had never set out to deal with his inadequacies in that way. Happy now? Uh? I’m pretty sure the crime rate in New York was pretty indifferent to anything Goetz did. There was some outrage afterward since his case highlighted how out-of-control the city had become, but as far as I know what _really_ led to the eventual drop in crime (or at least contributed several orders of magnitude more than Goetz) was that the kids prevented by legalized abortion weren’t around to turn 15. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/29 "2011-12-25T05:51:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Uh? I’m pretty sure the crime rate in New York was pretty indifferent to anything Goetz did. There was some outrage afterward since his case highlighted how out-of-control the city had become, but as far as I know what _really_ led to the eventual drop in crime (or at least contributed several orders of magnitude more than Goetz) was that the kids prevented by legalized abortion weren’t around to turn 15. I was just talking about the guys he shot going on to commit more crimes. The abortion assertion is a little difficult to prove, but undoubtedly reduced birthrates among the impoverished will decrease the crime rate. But then again, so does increasing illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/30 "2011-12-25T06:00:42Z")
No offense, but shouldn’t this be in MPSIMS? I mean, it’s actually kind of celebrating something. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/31 "2011-12-25T12:49:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > 47 years? Wow, I’m remembering things that happened before I was born! I must be Merlin! See if you can convince some watery tart to throw me a sword. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/32 "2011-12-25T12:52:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > as far as I know what _really_ led to the eventual drop in crime (or at least contributed several orders of magnitude more than Goetz) was that the kids prevented by legalized abortion weren’t around to turn 15. This is one of those arguments I’ve heard bandied about so often in abortion debate arguments over the years, and I never remember anyone producing any actual evidence in its support. But I’ll confess I’ve avoided abortion debate threads for the past five years or so. Has this notion been backed up by any research while I’ve been away? Or is it still one of those things that people think _ought_ to be true, but nothing more? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/33 "2011-12-25T13:33:37Z")
(about crime dropping in the 90s-00s because of the effect of would-be “born losers” having been aborted) > [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is one of those arguments I’ve heard bandied about so often in abortion debate arguments over the years, and I never remember anyone producing any actual evidence in its support. But I’ll confess I’ve avoided abortion debate threads for the past five years or so. > > Has this notion been backed up by any research while I’ve been away? Or is it still one of those things that people think _ought_ to be true, but nothing more? Mostly entered public consciousness through a whole chapter in the first _Freakonomics_ book, which does include citations but I don’t have it with me to look up what sort or how good. Did not really strongly convince me that this factor was so significant, just that it was A factor. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/34 "2011-12-25T16:35:09Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > It’s in the wiki article. Two went on to be criminals, and a third became a junkie with various petty crime arrests. The paralyzed brain damaged one is the only one who managed to stay out of trouble. Thanks for the link-brings back the memories-of Rev. Al Sharpton denouncing the obvious racism of the jury. Too bad these four subhumans were never born. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/35 "2011-12-26T07:41:19Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I was just talking about the guys he shot going on to commit more crimes. But they didn’t. Not all of them. One of the four did not commit any further crimes, due to his paralysis from being shot. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/36 "2011-12-26T16:52:54Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But they didn’t. > Not all of them. One of the four did not commit any further crimes, due to his paralysis from being shot. Oh well then, we should all just go around shooting to people to lower the crime rate then. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/37 "2011-12-26T17:29:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Too bad these four subhumans were never born. Yeah, if they HAD been born, then… wait, what? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/38 "2011-12-26T22:24:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Oh well then, we should all just go around shooting to people to lower the crime rate then. Well, not just people at random. But shooting criminals – that would seem likely to lower the crime rate. Most information I have seen, both actual studies and just anecdotes from friends in law enforcement, indicates that a small number of criminals commit a large majority of the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/39 "2011-12-27T01:30:12Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > “Ramseur later served 25 years for raping a pegnant woman with a gun.” > > He used a gun to intimidate her while he raped her or he actually raped her with a gun? Or he raped a pregnant woman who had a gun? My takeaway from that was that the gun itself was used as the uh, raping-implement. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/40 "2011-12-27T02:39:56Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > What’s the point? Given that the thread started out being happy that one of the people Goetz shot has died 20-odd years later, and given that Goetz served time in jail for the shootings, what’s the point? > > I’ve made it clear in previous threads that I do not believe that gloating over a human being’s death is appropriate. You may take it for given that I still believe so. Nitpick: Goetz did not serve time in jail for the shootings. Not exactly, anyway, although he did spend some time (8 months? 10 months? Can’t remember, but something short of a year) in prison. The Manhattan DA had trouble even getting an indictment for anything other than possession of an unregistered gun (IANAL, and I can’t remember exactly what the charges were, but I think I’ve got the essence of it), but ultimately, after a couple of tries, did get an attempted murder (and probably some other stuff) indictment. The case went to trial, and the jury acquitted Goetz of everything but the gun possession charge, for which he received the maximum possible sentence (unlike just about everyone else caught with an illegal gun in NYC back then). So Goetz was indicted for the shootings, but convicted and sentenced only for the gun charge. The gun charge would have carried the same sentence whether or not he shot someone with that gun. So he didn’t serve time for the shootings. New York from around 1975 until perhaps 1985 was pretty much a miserable freak show. There was some good stuff going on, but still, it was pretty awful. It’s still awful, but in very different ways. S Some days I wonder why I’m spending my whole life here. I absolutely share your (Frank’s) opinion that gloating over someone’s death is pretty damn unpleasant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=3)