# James Ramseur, one of Bernard Goetz's shooting victims, is dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183 "2011-12-23T14:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/41 "2011-12-27T14:12:12Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > “Ramseur later served 25 years for raping a pegnant woman with a gun.” > > He used a gun to intimidate her while he raped her or he actually raped her with a gun? Or he raped a pregnant woman who had a gun? > > Anyway…yeah, I sided with Goetz at the time. I’m not saying it’s right to take the law into your own hands but…_I understand_. He physically raped her repeatedly with a gun. He repeatedly pushed a gun into the vagina of a pregnant woman, and she ended up needing about 100 stitches to repair the physical damage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/42 "2011-12-27T15:25:25Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Without taking a stance one way or the other, I must say I’m amazed that there is nobody in this thread criticizing Goetz. I would have thought that on this board, there would be a significant number of people condemning what he did. This has very little to do with that. Why bother? Since you ask, though, Goetz is an asshole who got away with attempted murder with a slap on the wrist. He ought to be in jail - or at the very least, to be broke, since there is an outstanding civil judgment against him for $20 million which he claims to have paid nothing on. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/43 "2011-12-27T15:37:54Z")
But it’s Christmastime. What better time to gloat over someone’s death? I know I get all bloodthirsty at this time of year. Come on, get in the spirit! ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/44 "2011-12-27T16:07:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I expect Ramseur and his friends in all likelihood would have mugged Goetz if he hadn’t given them any money, but he shot them before they had the opportunity. So Ramseur brought a screwdriver to a power tool fight. Gee, talk about being able to benefit from some lithium meds. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/45 "2011-12-27T18:36:25Z")
Why all the sympathy for a bunch of criminals? Goetz was no hero, but he had every right to defend himself. Frankly, if these four were killed that day, who would miss them? Let the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world complain-what would THEY have done, in Goetz’s circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/46 "2011-12-27T19:51:46Z")
I love how you post your narratives regardless of whether or not they have anything to do with what’s actually going on. Nearly all of the posts in this thread are about how Ramseur was a douche and how the world is probably a better place without him - but you came here to bitch about all the sympathy he’s getting, and by God, you’re going to bitch even if there’s no sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/47 "2011-12-27T19:57:57Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > So Ramseur brought a screwdriver to a power tool fight. . I brought velcro to duct tape fisticuffs once. Did not turn out well at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/48 "2011-12-27T22:38:20Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > But it’s Christmastime. What better time to gloat over someone’s death? That’s **Easter,** dumbass! ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/49 "2011-12-28T01:45:28Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > He physically raped her repeatedly with a gun. He repeatedly pushed a gun into the vagina of a pregnant woman, and she ended up needing about 100 stitches to repair the physical damage. That is seriously messed up. Good riddance to Ramsuer! Not that “traditional” rape is any better. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/50 "2011-12-28T03:05:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Why all the sympathy for a bunch of criminals? Goetz was no hero, but he had every right to defend himself. Frankly, if these four were killed that day, who would miss them? > Let the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world complain-what would THEY have done, in Goetz’s circumstances? See, the thing is, it’s better if people don’t squeeze off rounds in the subway. The fact that he hit two of them in the back indicates that he could have endangered hundreds of lives recklessly, after he was out of danger. I have no sympathy for the assailants, but plenty for every other commuter, who had to wonder of they’re going to get with a stray bullet on their next ride. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/51 "2011-12-28T03:38:28Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > That is seriously messed up. > Good riddance to Ramsuer! > > Not that “traditional” rape is any better. He did that, too. Or rather, his accomplice did it, while he threatened her with the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/52 "2011-12-28T14:03:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It isn’t a thread about Goetz. But since you insist, he was the same kind of scum as his victims. Look at the result of his vigilante campaign, as much or more crime as if he had never set out to deal with his inadequacies in that way. Happy now? Please explain the following: 1. What was the “vigilante campaign” that Goetz carried out? A single self-defense incident is not a “campaign” (nor is it being a “vigilante”), no matter how much one might want to spin it that way. From what I can find, Goetz’ has since run an electronics firm which has a scary name, and has campaigned for _vegetarianism,_ not _vigilantism._ 2. What were these “inadequacies?” Is being a victim of crime being “inadequate?.” 3. So what you’re saying in effect is “look at the result of Goetz defending himself against a robbery - the entire city of New York went down the tubes over the next several years”, which is silly and ignorant, as there’s no possible cause and effect. Or dare I ask, cite that that was the “result of his (nonexistent) vigilante (nonexistent) campaign?” I think your post needs much further elaboration in order to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/53 "2011-12-28T15:38:40Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > So Ramseur brought a screwdriver to a power tool fight. Gee, talk about being able to benefit from some lithium meds. Is there something I’m missing here? Has it become passé for Dopers to correct factual inaccuracies? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/54 "2011-12-28T16:03:35Z")
I have stood on NYC subway trains since 1981. This includes the #7 from Flushing at the height of both rush hour and summertime. Before the #7 was air conditioned, taking a rush hour subway meant standing with the armpits and sweaty bums pressed against you. Having set the picture, I must say that it seems to me that I never saw 100 people on a subway car at once. I don’t think you can fit 100 average sized teenagers and adults on a NYC subway car. If you COULD, a bullet fired would hit one, perhaps two. Hundreds of people would not have been at risk. A few surrounding a gunman would have been at risk. He didn’t use a tommy-gun, ya know. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/55 "2011-12-28T16:22:47Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Please explain the following: > > 1. What was the “vigilante campaign” that Goetz carried out? A single self-defense incident is not a “campaign” (nor is it being a “vigilante”), no matter how much one might want to spin it that way. From what I can find, Goetz’ has since run an electronics firm which has a scary name, and has campaigned for _vegetarianism,_ not _vigilantism._ Goetz admitted he was looking to get mugged so he could shoot people. > [@](#): > > 1. What were these “inadequacies?” Is being a victim of crime being “inadequate?.” He thought he was a wimpy looking guy and target for a mugging. > [@](#): > > 1. So what you’re saying in effect is “look at the result of Goetz defending himself against a robbery - the entire city of New York went down the tubes over the next several years”, which is silly and ignorant, as there’s no possible cause and effect. Or dare I ask, cite that that was the “result of his (nonexistent) vigilante (nonexistent) campaign?” If you had read further you would have seen me say I was referring to his victims continuing to commit crimes after being attacked by him. I’m not defending the scum he shot in any way. I’m saying he was a vigilante who wanted to get revenge for previous assaults, and he had no concern for who he was shooting. He wasn’t convicted of assault and attempted murder because he had a fantastic defense attorney, Barry Slotnik, and a lot of sympathy from the populace from which the jury was selected. But essentially he was a failed spree killer. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/56 "2011-12-28T16:41:52Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I don’t think you can fit 100 average sized teenagers and adults on a NYC subway car. > > If you COULD, a bullet fired would hit one, perhaps two. Hundreds of people would not have been at risk. A few surrounding a gunman would have been at risk. > > He didn’t use a tommy-gun, ya know. You might want to look up the word “risk” sometime. It doesn’t mean what you appear to think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/57 "2011-12-28T16:58:33Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Goetz admitted he was looking to get mugged so he could shoot people. I think there was some missing context. > [@](#): > > He thought he was a wimpy looking guy and target for a mugging. Being a target for mugging makes you “inadequate?” Before you type back a fiery reply, please consider for a couple of seconds how even if you had no intention of doing such, how your words could be interpreted to be insulting to victims of robberies or other violent crimes. I don’t think you meant to be insulting, but I think you could have worded that better. For some reason it rankled me, probably because in the past I’ve been insulted on this message board by people who said I asked to be a victim of violent crime. I probably am projecting my defensiveness into this thread, which is not fair to you. But just so you know why I posted in the first place. > [@](#): > > If you had read further… I did read further, and your position still seemed unclear and inconsistent. So I was asking clarification. > [@](#): > > I’m saying he was a vigilante who wanted to get revenge for previous assaults, and he had no concern for who he was shooting. He wasn’t convicted of assault and attempted murder because he had a fantastic defense attorney, Barry Slotnik, and a lot of sympathy from the populace from which the jury was selected. But essentially he was a failed spree killer. All I’m doing is saying this is logically inconsistent. A spree killer would have opened fire on the subway car populace in general, and even if his spree was predicated by the robbery, he would not have stopped at shooting just the criminals. And a vigilante, assuming one claims Goetz is such, is not a spree killer. Didn’t I see a similar conversation on here before? > [@](#): > > Happy now? Yes, I’m actually very happy today. Things are going well. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/58 "2011-12-28T17:17:35Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I think there was some missing context. > Being a target for mugging makes you “inadequate?” Before you type back a fiery reply, please consider for a couple of seconds how even if you had no intention of doing such, how your words could be interpreted to be insulting to victims of robberies or other violent crimes. I don’t think you meant to be insulting, but I think you could have worded that better. For some reason it rankled me, probably because in the past I’ve been insulted on this message board by people who said I asked to be a victim of violent crime. I probably am projecting my defensiveness into this thread, which is not fair to you. But just so you know why I posted in the first place. I’ve never said that about you, sorry others did. I’m basing this on Goetz’ own words. He thought he was a target. > [@](#): > > I did read further, and your position still seemed unclear and inconsistent. So I was asking clarification. That’s ok. I’m naturally hyperbolic, and this is the Pit, so I don’t even bother trying to be more precise or accurate. > [@](#): > > All I’m doing is saying this is logically inconsistent. A spree killer would have opened fire on the subway car populace in general, and even if his spree was predicated by the robbery, he would not have stopped at shooting just the criminals. And a vigilante, assuming one claims Goetz is such, is not a spree killer. Didn’t I see a similar conversation on here before? He’s not really a spree killer. I think he was a guy who made a poor decision about how to cope with his fears. I have some sympathy for him. But he admits that he made himself look like a target because he wanted to turn the tables. As dangerous as a man like Goetz was to society, he was a piker compared to Ramseur. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m actually very happy today. Things are going well. Good! I’m happy for you! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/59 "2011-12-28T17:25:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’ve never said that about you, sorry others did. I’m basing this on Goetz’ own words. He thought he was a target. Thank you. I now understand what you’re saying, and I think you’re on-base. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/60 "2011-12-28T17:30:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Is there something I’m missing here? Has it become passé for Dopers to correct factual inaccuracies? Like “a knife to a gun fight”, Ramseur threatned the gun weilding Goetz relatively underarmed, with a screwdriver. Yes, that really was his weapon. The lithium meds quip was a power tool / rechargeable battery joke. If that wasn’t immediately apparent then my bad. I assumed it was a large enough deviation from what’s known to have only been interpreted as kidding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=4)