# James Ramseur, one of Bernard Goetz's shooting victims, is dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183 "2011-12-23T14:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/61 "2011-12-28T18:50:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But essentially he was a failed spree killer. I prefer to think of him as a real life Batman that got forced into early retirement. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/62 "2011-12-28T20:08:06Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I prefer to think of him as a real life Batman that got forced into early retirement. Since I consider Batman to be a psychopath, that’s a good comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/63 "2011-12-28T20:13:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s **Easter,** dumbass! But it’s not Easter and here we are a-gloatin’? You know holiday spirit and all that jazz. Good fucking riddance and a Merry CHRISTmas to you, I say. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/64 "2011-12-28T20:19:59Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I have stood on NYC subway trains since 1981. This includes the #7 from Flushing at the height of both rush hour and summertime. Before the #7 was air conditioned, taking a rush hour subway meant standing with the armpits and sweaty bums pressed against you. > > Having set the picture, I must say that it seems to me that I never saw 100 people on a subway car at once. I don’t think you can fit 100 average sized teenagers and adults on a NYC subway car. NYC subway cars have a stated capacity of over 200 passengers, and on some lines, at some times, plenty more than than squeeze into a car. If you were on a packed 7 train, I’m pretty sure there were at least 200 people in your car. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > If you COULD, a bullet fired would hit one, perhaps two. Hundreds of people would not have been at risk. A few surrounding a gunman would have been at risk. I don’t think you have a realistic idea of the risks involved in firing a gun, not once, but (in Goetz’s case) five times inside a subway car. And this isn’t coming from someone who’s unfamiliar with the NYC subway system. I’ve been riding the subways just about every day of my life starting in, I’d guess, about 1970. I’m especially familiar with the 7 train, since I grew up along that line. Took it every day into Manhattan and back to go to high school. I don’t ride the 7 much anymore, but I’m stilling living in the city, and still going to work on the subway every day. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/65 "2011-12-28T20:25:51Z")
If it can hold 200 people, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/66 "2011-12-28T20:27:53Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > All I’m doing is saying this is logically inconsistent. A spree killer would have opened fire on the subway car populace in general, and even if his spree was predicated by the robbery, he would not have stopped at shooting just the criminals. I thought he stopped because he ran out of bullets. In fact, wasn’t the civil suit (and about 95% of the controversy) about where and how he fired his fifth and final shot, i.e. whether or not it was at a seated man who posed no immediate threat and was prefaced with some variation on “you look okay, have another” ? I’m personally okay with Goetz’s actions, and they incidentally helped Cynthia Nixon’s career. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/67 "2011-12-28T20:39:37Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > All I’m doing is saying this is logically inconsistent. A spree killer would have opened fire on the subway car populace in general, and even if his spree was predicated by the robbery, he would not have stopped at shooting just the criminals. He didn’t stop at shooting just the criminals. He also shot James Cabey, who was with the others but never approached Goetz and was sitting or standing at the opposite end of the subway car at the time of the shooting. A spree killer who only kills black people or punk kids is still a spree killer (though I’m not necessarily convinced Goetz meets the definition). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/68 "2011-12-28T20:51:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Since I consider Batman to be a psychopath, that’s a good comparison. Fess up. You just hate rich closet pedophiles in tights. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/69 "2011-12-28T20:52:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He didn’t stop at shooting just the criminals. He also shot James Cabey, who was with the others but never approached Goetz and was sitting or standing at the opposite end of the subway car at the time of the shooting. A spree killer who only kills black people or punk kids is still a spree killer (though I’m not necessarily convinced Goetz meets the definition). That doesn’t quite align with my memory. I remember the news accounts of the time indicating that the four young men were grouped together, near Goetz. Also, I’m pretty sure that NYC subway cars, on the subway line where the shootings took place, are about 50 feet long. That would have been quite a shot, if Cabey was in fact at the opposite end of the subway car. And an even more risky shot than I thought. Someone firing a handgun at another person right in front of him is one thing. Firing the length of a subway car is another thing altogether. Extremely reckless, in my opinion. Do you have a pointer to any reliable contemporary description of events? Note: I’m not saying you’re wrong – it’s just as possible that my memory is wrong. I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/70 "2011-12-28T20:59:12Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Do you have a pointer to any reliable contemporary description of events? [Indeed.](http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/archives/p_goetz.htm) > [@](#): > > The first shot hit Canty in the chest; the second struck Allen in the back; the third went through Ramseur’s arm and into his left side; the fourth was fired at Cabey, who apparently was then standing in the corner of the car, but missed, deflecting instead off of a wall of the conductor’s cab. After Goetz briefly surveyed the scene around him, he fired another shot at Cabey, who then was sitting on the end bench of the car. > [@](#): > > The other youth (Cabey) “tried pretending that he wasn’t with [the others]” by standing still, holding on to one of the subway hand straps, and not looking at Goetz. Goetz nonetheless fired his fourth shot at him. > [@](#): > > Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said ’ [y]ou seem to be all right, here’s another’ ", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey’s spinal cord. Goetz added that “if I was a little more under self-control \* \* \* I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired.” He also admitted that “if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/71 "2011-12-28T21:02:46Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Fess up. > > You just hate rich closet pedophiles in tights. No, only rich closet pedophiles in tights who are psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/72 "2011-12-28T21:07:10Z")
[The Wiki cite on testimony concerning the shots fired.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz#Sequence_of_shots). ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/73 "2011-12-28T22:04:48Z")
My parents both lived in New York during the late 70s and early to mid 80s. I’ve heard them, and other family members, talking about what the city was like during this time. Basically, people felt like prey. They had to constantly look over their shoulder, and it was basically accepted as a given that muggings and burglary would be part of your life, just like flus and headaches. Everyone’s house was rigged up with endless burglar alarms, burglar bars, “clubs” on the cars, etc. The subways were seen as scary dungeons. The idea of a concealed handgun for self-defense was utterly unthinkable (because it was impossible to obtain a permit) and yet it was accepted as a matter of course that street thugs would be carrying them. Try to imagine living in that kind of environment. A _hostile_ environment that makes you feel like _prey_. Of course lots of people was going to root for Goetz, just like people ate up the _Death Wish_ movies. They saw it as the prey finally growing some teeth and biting back. Everyone loves it when a bully gets his comeuppance. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/74 "2011-12-28T22:53:10Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > It may take awhile but whatever Bernhard wants… /groan > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Without taking a stance one way or the other, I must say I’m amazed that there is nobody in this thread criticizing Goetz. I would have thought that on this board, there would be a significant number of people condemning what he did. Why would you think that? Not a lot of sympathy in the PIT for criminals. If anything, people seem to put on their hang 'em high persona here. > [@TriPolar](#): > > It isn’t a thread about Goetz. But since you insist, he was the same kind of scum as his victims. Look at the result of his vigilante campaign, as much or more crime as if he had never set out to deal with his inadequacies in that way. Happy now? The one he paralyzed didn’t commit any mroe crime. I suspect that if he had paralyzed all of them, then none of them would have committed any more crime. I know its a bit harsh but I grew up in NYC and things were getting out of control. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Uh? I’m pretty sure the crime rate in New York was pretty indifferent to anything Goetz did. There was some outrage afterward since his case highlighted how out-of-control the city had become, but as far as I know what _really_ led to the eventual drop in crime (or at least contributed several orders of magnitude more than Goetz) was that the kids prevented by legalized abortion weren’t around to turn 15. I think it made some would be criminals think twice. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is one of those arguments I’ve heard bandied about so often in abortion debate arguments over the years, and I never remember anyone producing any actual evidence in its support. But I’ll confess I’ve avoided abortion debate threads for the past five years or so. > > Has this notion been backed up by any research while I’ve been away? Or is it still one of those things that people think _ought_ to be true, but nothing more? I don’t know how much of the abortion theory of reduced crime really holds water. [Freakonomics - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics#Effects_of_abortion_ban) > [@TriPolar](#): > > Oh well then, we should all just go around shooting to people to lower the crime rate then. Well Bernie Goetz wasn’t shooting random people, he was shooting would be muggers. I suspect that if a magical fairy went around shooting all would be muggers, the crime rate would indeed go down. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > He physically raped her repeatedly with a gun. He repeatedly pushed a gun into the vagina of a pregnant woman, and she ended up needing about 100 stitches to repair the physical damage. :eek: Sounds like Bernie should have saved his last bullet for this guy. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > My parents both lived in New York during the late 70s and early to mid 80s. I’ve heard them, and other family members, talking about what the city was like during this time. Basically, people felt like prey. They had to constantly look over their shoulder, and it was basically accepted as a given that muggings and burglary would be part of your life, just like flus and headaches. Everyone’s house was rigged up with endless burglar alarms, burglar bars, “clubs” on the cars, etc. The subways were seen as scary dungeons. The idea of a concealed handgun for self-defense was utterly unthinkable (because it was impossible to obtain a permit) and yet it was accepted as a matter of course that street thugs would be carrying them. > > Try to imagine living in that kind of environment. A _hostile_ environment that makes you feel like _prey_. Of course lots of people was going to root for Goetz, just like people ate up the _Death Wish_ movies. They saw it as the prey finally growing some teeth and biting back. Everyone loves it when a bully gets his comeuppance. I grew up in NYC at this time. It was bad. You put bars on your windows and your door and doorframe was made of metal and had barricades. It was this bad until Clinton took office. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/75 "2011-12-28T23:01:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > /Well Bernie Goetz wasn’t shooting random people, he was shooting would be muggers. I suspect that if a magical fairy went around shooting all would be muggers, the crime rate would indeed go down. Yes, it’s easy to identify would be muggers. They’re young, dark-skinned, male, and ride the subway. A few guys with Uzis in the subway stations could have fixed all NYC crime problems. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/76 "2011-12-28T23:05:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He didn’t stop at shooting just the criminals. He also shot James Cabey, who was with the others but never approached Goetz and was sitting or standing at the opposite end of the subway car at the time of the shooting. A spree killer who only kills black people or punk kids is still a spree killer (though I’m not necessarily convinced Goetz meets the definition). It appears I am incorrect. Thank you for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/77 "2011-12-28T23:08:05Z")
It’s easy to identify would-be muggers. They approach strangers in a threatening manner and ask for money or goods, implying that they (the would be muggers) are willing and eager to inflict violence if they don’t get money and/or goods. Age and sex and race…well, statistically, muggers fit into a certain demographic, but not all muggers are young black males. USUALLY muggers are young and male, but they come in all colors. And some muggers are older. I’ve never seen a female mugger, myself, but I’m sure that at least some exist. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/78 "2011-12-28T23:40:45Z")
I moved to New York CIty in 1981. It was the age of iron bars on doors and windows, automobile [Bensi Boxes](http://media.photobucket.com/image/Car%20Radio%20Bensi%20Box/John_in_VA/M3/E36soundsystem010.jpg) so you could take the face of your radio with you, pepper spray, muggings, burglar alarm systems, The Club® for your steering wheel and so on. Most of the neighborhoods in Manhattan and many outlying areas in the other boros were simply deemed incredibly unsafe, somewhat unsafe, or unsafe. Being out in the day was unnerving and being out after dark was risky at best in many areas. I lived there when this story happened. The city was electrified. Forget " Death Wish ". This was the real deal. And yeah it sure did fan the flames of racial stereotyping that the “victim” was a slender white fellow and the “muggers” were black. Meh. It could have easily swung the other way. [Howard Beach, Queens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Griffith_%28manslaughter_victim%29) has a sad history of racial attacks and murders where white people have attached blacks. It made the city feel a little bit empowered because one person struck back. A screwdriver can kill in a few seconds by being plunged through the aorta or brain, take your pick. A gun works even faster, but I don’t buy the b.s. about how a gun is unfair when matched up against a screwdriver. You feel threatened, someone brandishes a lethal weapon, you do what you have decided to do. I’m not defending the shootings but I sure do understand them. How far did the pendulum swing in the other direction? Far enough that when anally raping a black man with a broomstick whose crime was…uh…being black and being victimized by white NYPD officers, the NYPD officers yelled, " [It’s Giuliani Time !!](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Giuliani). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/79 "2011-12-28T23:43:49Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Meh. It could have easily swung the other way. [Howard Beach, Queens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Griffith_%28manslaughter_victim%29) has a sad history of racial attacks and murders where white people have attached blacks. Yeah, roving gangs of whites, armed with glue guns and soldering irons… ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/80 "2011-12-29T00:02:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [Indeed.](http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/archives/p_goetz.htm) I still don’t read that as showing that Cabey was at the far end of the car. Sounds like he was actually _across_ the car from Goetz, but still at the same end. But the account you cite makes it pretty obvious that Goetz had gone far beyond self-defense, and actually would have fired shots intended to kill, had he not run out of ammunition. > [@](#): > > One of these two “tried to run through the wall of the train, but \* \* \* he had nowhere to go”. The other youth (Cabey) “tried pretending that he wasn’t with [the others]” by standing still, holding on to one of the subway hand straps, and not looking at Goetz. Goetz nonetheless fired his fourth shot at him. He then ran back to the first two youths to make sure they had been “taken care of”. Seeing that they had both been shot, he spun back to check on the latter two. Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said ’ [y]ou seem to be all right, here’s another’ ", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey’s spinal cord. Goetz added that “if I was a little more under self-control \* \* \* I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired.” He also admitted that “if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again.” So Goetz shot one person who was not threatening him (Cabey), and would have assassinated him and the others if he’d had more ammunition. I have no sympathy for Goetz. His reaction was far and away beyond anything justified by the threat these men posed to him. He got away with attempted murder, and might have gotten away with murder, if he’d had a gun with more bullets. And I say this having lived through the 70s and 80s in New York, which were really pretty awful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=5)