# James Ramseur, one of Bernard Goetz's shooting victims, is dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183 "2011-12-23T14:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/81 "2011-12-29T00:05:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He didn’t stop at shooting just the criminals. He also shot James Cabey, who was with the others but never approached Goetz and was sitting or standing at the opposite end of the subway car at the time of the shooting. A spree killer who only kills black people or punk kids is still a spree killer (though I’m not necessarily convinced Goetz meets the definition). I’m not sure, but I think his failure to kill anybody disqualifies him. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/82 "2011-12-29T00:07:30Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I lived there when this story happened. The city was electrified. Forget " Death Wish ". This was the real deal. And yeah it sure did fan the flames of racial stereotyping that the “victim” was a slender white fellow and the “muggers” were black. It’s worth noting that the city was only electrified by Goetz and his shooting, but not by the countless shootings, muggings, robbery and rape by street thugs. The latter had become accepted as a matter of course, the same way people in cold climates learn to accept the cold and deal with it. It didn’t shock anyone; everyone was used to feeling like prey. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/83 "2011-12-29T00:14:12Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > How far did the pendulum swing in the other direction? Far enough that when anally raping a black man with a broomstick whose crime was…uh…being black and being victimized by white NYPD officers, the NYPD officers yelled, " [It’s Giuliani Time !!](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Giuliani). They didn’t. Abner Louima (the victim of that crime) later retracted his claim that the officer(s) involved had said that. Cite here: [http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/the-abner-louima-case-10-years-later/](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/the-abner-louima-case-10-years-later/) Not that there’s much that can be said in defense of the police officers involved, not the one who actually did it, not the ones who covered for him, but nobody said “it’s Giuliani time.” ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/84 "2011-12-29T00:48:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I thought he stopped because he ran out of bullets. Pity stayed his hand. _“It’s a pity I’m out of bullets, he thought.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/85 "2011-12-29T04:47:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, roving gangs of whites, armed with glue guns and soldering irons… Um, no. Read the cite. There were three high-profile well-documented assaults by gangs of whites against blacks in Howard Beach in the 1980’s. Not counting smaller or lower profile assaults. No clue what the fuck glue guns and soldering irons means, but these were pretty vicious assaults. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/86 "2011-12-29T04:50:38Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > They didn’t. Abner Louima (the victim of that crime) later retracted his claim that the officer(s) involved had said that. > > Cite here: [http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/the-abner-louima-case-10-years-later/](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/the-abner-louima-case-10-years-later/) > > Not that there’s much that can be said in defense of the police officers involved, not the one who actually did it, not the ones who covered for him, but nobody said “it’s Giuliani time.” Ooooh no kidding?! It was quite the notorious quote back in the day. Thank you for the correction. Evil enough incident- and you have to admit the article you cited is accurate in that that event was the beginning of a long decline in Mayor Rudy’s reign. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/87 "2011-12-29T05:30:50Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > NYC subway cars have a stated capacity of over 200 passengers, and on some lines, at some times, plenty more than than squeeze into a car. If you were on a packed 7 train, I’m pretty sure there were at least 200 people in your car. Not on the 7, which uses IRT-sized cars. They are designed to only hold about 170 at capacity. B division cars can hold 250 or more. As for Bernie Goetz, my only opinion is that pretty much everybody involved is a dickface. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/88 "2011-12-29T05:39:16Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Um, no. Read the cite. Um, no. Read the typo at the end (well, second-to-end) of the portion I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/89 "2011-12-29T05:57:42Z")
People should realize that NYC peaked in 1990 with 2,245 homicides. By comparison, the entire NYC metro area, including parts of NJ and PA, had about 900 homicides in 2010 (536 in the city proper). That 1990 number is comparable to the number of homicides Ciudad Juarez, Mexico experienced in 2009 during Mexico’s drug war. Bottom line: NYC was a violent, lawless shithole from the 70s till the mid-90s. It’s no coincidence that Death Wish became a popular series (Death Wish III opened at #1 at the box office…not that it had quality competition or anything, but still.) People didn’t feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/90 "2011-12-29T16:13:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, it’s easy to identify would be muggers. They’re young, dark-skinned, male, and ride the subway. A few guys with Uzis in the subway stations could have fixed all NYC crime problems. OR, they could be the guys who approach you and threaten you with physical violence if you don’t hand over your wallet. So yeah if we shot anyone taht did this, people would stop doing this. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I moved to New York CIty in 1981. It was the age of iron bars on doors and windows, automobile [Bensi Boxes](http://media.photobucket.com/image/Car%20Radio%20Bensi%20Box/John_in_VA/M3/E36soundsystem010.jpg) so you could take the face of your radio with you, pepper spray, muggings, burglar alarm systems, The Club® for your steering wheel and so on. Most of the neighborhoods in Manhattan and many outlying areas in the other boros were simply deemed incredibly unsafe, somewhat unsafe, or unsafe. Being out in the day was unnerving and being out after dark was risky at best in many areas. > > I lived there when this story happened. The city was electrified. Forget " Death Wish ". This was the real deal. And yeah it sure did fan the flames of racial stereotyping that the “victim” was a slender white fellow and the “muggers” were black. > > Meh. It could have easily swung the other way. [Howard Beach, Queens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Griffith_%28manslaughter_victim%29) has a sad history of racial attacks and murders where white people have attached blacks. > > It made the city feel a little bit empowered because one person struck back. A screwdriver can kill in a few seconds by being plunged through the aorta or brain, take your pick. A gun works even faster, but I don’t buy the b.s. about how a gun is unfair when matched up against a screwdriver. You feel threatened, someone brandishes a lethal weapon, you do what you have decided to do. I’m not defending the shootings but I sure do understand them. > > How far did the pendulum swing in the other direction? Far enough that when anally raping a black man with a broomstick whose crime was…uh…being black and being victimized by white NYPD officers, the NYPD officers yelled, " [It’s Giuliani Time !!](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Giuliani). The city had broken down into semi-lawlessness. NYC had become a salad bowl. You took your life into your own hands when you entered an ethnically homogenous neighorhood if it wasn’t your ethinicity. Al Sharpton was staging marches through white neighborhoods where blacks had been victims of violent crimes and people would line the streets yelling “nigger go home” and frankly a lot of people were well aware of the fact that a small minority of then population was generating the majority of the violent crime. People stopped being concerned about right and wrong, they just wanted it to stop and if a few juvenile delinquents got killed to make an example to the others, a lot of people were OK with that. If cops were engaging in excessive use of force, people seemed OK with that as well, even if the police force was exhibiting obvious evidence of racism. It was a dark time. The reduction in the crime rate has done more to reduce racism in NYC than all the sensitivity classes in the world could ever achieve. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, roving gangs of whites, armed with glue guns and soldering irons… Huh? > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Um, no. Read the cite. There were three high-profile well-documented assaults by gangs of whites against blacks in Howard Beach in the 1980’s. Not counting smaller or lower profile assaults. To be fair, these were high profile exactly because of the fact this was white on black crime. While it was becoming more common, it was dwarfed by black on white crime in the 1980’s. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > People should realize that NYC peaked in 1990 with 2,245 homicides. By comparison, the entire NYC metro area, including parts of NJ and PA, had about 900 homicides in 2010 (536 in the city proper). That 1990 number is comparable to the number of homicides Ciudad Juarez, Mexico experienced in 2009 during Mexico’s drug war. > > Bottom line: NYC was a violent, lawless shithole from the 70s till the mid-90s. It’s no coincidence that Death Wish became a popular series (Death Wish III opened at #1 at the box office…not that it had quality competition or anything, but still.) People didn’t feel safe. That’s when I developed my position on gun control. God made men, Colonel Colt made them equal. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/91 "2011-12-29T20:55:19Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > People should realize that NYC peaked in 1990 with 2,245 homicides. By comparison, the entire NYC metro area, including parts of NJ and PA, had about 900 homicides in 2010 (536 in the city proper). That 1990 number is comparable to the number of homicides Ciudad Juarez, Mexico experienced in 2009 during Mexico’s drug war. > > Bottom line: NYC was a violent, lawless shithole from the 70s till the mid-90s. It’s no coincidence that Death Wish became a popular series (\*\*Death Wish III \*\*opened at #1 at the box office…not that it had quality competition or anything, but still.) People didn’t feel safe. Was that the one where Charles Bronson goes hunting down hoodlums with a World War II-era machine gun? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/92 "2011-12-29T20:58:42Z")
Geezus. Sounds like that movie Escape from New York was a reasonable extrapolation of the trend of the times. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/93 "2011-12-29T21:19:16Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Was that the one where Charles Bronson goes hunting down hoodlums with a World War II-era machine gun? Yes, along with his friend ‘Wildey’. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/94 "2011-12-29T21:25:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Geezus. > > Sounds like that movie Escape from New York was a reasonable extrapolation of the trend of the times. Things were pretty bad. Drugs, homelessness, and poverty seemed to be slowly turning the place into a wasteland. Mostly drugs I think. The dismal statistics for homicides are a little misleading because an awful lot of them were just criminals killing each other. The bigger problem was lesser crimes, endless muggings, burglaries, car thefts, shakedowns, squeegee assaults, all ways of obtaining money (you can’t buy drugs with dead bodies). On top of that were growing nuisance issues that represented the failing of societal order. I grudgingly give that big phony Rudy Giuliani credit for cracking down on street peddlers and squeegee guys. It was a good start to turning the problem around. But it was a good economy that really made the difference in the end. Plus, as I said, a lot of the bad guys simply killed each other. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/95 "2011-12-29T21:35:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > TPlus, as I said, a lot of the bad guys simply killed each other. But not, alas, before they had reproduced. And neglected, unnurtured children, with high chances that they would grow up to similar life of poverty & crime. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/96 "2011-12-29T21:49:14Z")
The economy, yeah. A few months ago my Dearly Beloved™ and I were driving down 2nd Avenue and I realized I was driving past a small park. The neighborhood was clean, nice and seemed to be quite gentrified. How could I tell? Because in 1987 I showed up to shoot a job at that park with my newly-obtained used Steadicam. The cheap-assed “producer” who had booked me was told to provide an insurance certificate, just in case. That park was notorious for drug dealers and the streets around it were a great place to get mugged. He had no cert. No C of I, no movie made that day. I couldn’t risk leaving cases of pricey gear in the car. I packed up and went home. He told me I’d never work in the town again. 😃 Now? The area is utterly transformed. The economy drove many neighborhoods to change. Having said that, it must be said that gentrification drains a neighborhood of its roots, original population, established older shops and dining spots. Hell’s Kitchen really is Hell’s Kitchen and has been for a very long time. Re-naming it “Clinton” is real-estate bullshit. There is a move afoot to [establish legislation prohibiting Real Estate brokers from re-naming areas](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/sobro-and-procro-nojoke-to-assemblyman/) on a whim or to try to remove negative or “ethnic” connotations long held- usually with great pride- about some areas. One does not re-name South Harlem as “SoHa”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/97 "2011-12-29T22:14:22Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Having said that, it must be said that gentrification drains a neighborhood of its roots, original population, established older shops and dining spots. I read an article about the gentrification of Bed-Stuy, and one of the commenters talked about his mixed feelings. Even though it was a bad neighborhood to grow up in, the experience gave residents a certain toughness and pride, that they had survived the crucible, and while he’s glad the neighborhood is a nicer place now, it bothered him that a bunch of “Beckies” (his term, which I took to mean a carefree young white woman tooling around a now cleaned-up city, oblivious to how it used to be) were able to walk so freely around this place where it was once too unsafe to play outside. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/98 "2011-12-29T22:17:28Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I read an article about the gentrification of Bed-Stuy, and one of the commenters talked about his mixed feelings. Even though it was a bad neighborhood to grow up in, the experience gave residents a certain toughness and pride, that they had survived the crucible, and while he’s glad the neighborhood is a nicer place now, it bothered him that a bunch of “Beckies” (his term, which I took to mean a carefree young white woman tooling around a now cleaned-up city, oblivious to how it used to be) were able to walk so freely around this place where it was once too unsafe to play outside. Yeah, and they should stop picking up the trash too. Now those were the good old days. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/99 "2011-12-29T23:19:10Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Having said that, it must be said that gentrification drains a neighborhood of its roots, original population, established older shops and dining spots. It’s an asinine, oft-quoted argument based on idiotic over-romanticized nostalgia. “Remember the good ol’ days, when Tony the barber on the corner would give you a shave for three bucks, and the drug dealers all had rape for dinner every evening? Why can’t we go back to that?!” ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183/100 "2011-12-29T23:39:55Z")
Wow. Asinine, eh? Okay, I can cite personal experience. Small town. Orange County, NY. PRE- strip malls and box stores, you had: 3 hardware stores. Family owned. One was on the main street for just under 100 years. Small clothing stores. TV Repair shop. Locksmith POST strip malls and box stores, you have: Home Depot Target Wal Mart None of the stores listed above survived. On the residence side of things, buying a house is almost impossible because Orange County because The Hot Bedroom County heading in that direction away from NYC. People who had lived in their grandparents homes could not afford the real estate taxes and had to sell out, moving up to Sullivan County or at least way up into the poorer areas of Orange County. As for city living, you can deny the seminal shifts in neighborhoods all you want. It may be that where ever you live in Brooklyn hasn’t shifted that much. My ex’s brothers bought a house on South Portland Ave just off of Ft. Green Park in the late 1980’s. Oh, the G Word was in the air. Ft. Green was an " up and coming " area. Lovely brownstones built during the Civil War were going for a song, because the area had been depressed and quite dangerous for quite a while. The neighborhood never completely gentrified. ( thank god ). However, real estate prices were a terror and some smaller older stores did fail, and were replaced by newer boutiques and food shoppes and small very expensive niche stores such as, say, Spikes Joint on S. Elliott. Just to keep the race angle at bay, it is completely fair to say that at least in Fort Green, [the gentrification that has taken place is largely by middle and upper class blacks but the result is the same.](http://articles.nydailynews.com/1997-03-09/entertainment/18030298_1_black-mecca-tree-lined-streets-bohemia). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-ramseur-one-of-bernard-goetzs-shooting-victims-is-dead/607183.md?page=6)